Why So Many Great Flood Traditions?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by Arne Saknussemm, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    On a forum like this one, ostensibly "scientific" and in practice often a fair go at that, one common reason for not responding to some content in a post is that it seems to have settled some matter. I often read in the math and physics forum, for example, and occasionally contribute from my little corner of experience, but almost never respond to rpenner's posting. Posters unfamiliar with this aspect of things here may interpret an absence of a chorus of "likes", or whatever they are used to, for unpopularity, and unpopularity for negative assessment of content - that is not safe.

    Basically, the original question derives from an overlooked aspect of human civilization (we live next to large bodies of water, in valleys and basins, etc), a gap in imagination (what almost always happens next to large bodies of water, for one reason or another, over timescales of thousands of years), a purposeful misrepresentation of anthropological fact (Flood stories do not resemble each other all that much, and the reason for claiming they do is pretty obvious), and so forth. The specific Flood myth of Judeo=Christian tradition is a traced example, in which the specific original or motivating event seems to be identifiable, possibly, as well as the immediately progenitive source of mythical content. That's because it was written down. So what is the problem with tracing it, taking advantage of the unusual literacy of those particular civilizations?
     
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  3. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    You said and I quote:



    I have said: by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned

    Think upon all your words posted here on this website...Expect a rebuttal commensurate with all you have said: For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.



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    :shrug:
     
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Judging those who would judge is in and of itself still judging.
    Eschew it.
     
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  7. Balerion Banned Banned

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    If you think threating an atheist with God's judgment is supposed to scare them...buddy, you got another thing comin.
     
  8. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    If you look at modern fads, such as celebrities, the media and handlers create hype and excitement, but the celebrity peaks and is forgotten. Or a new novel may be the talk of the town, but after a few months, the talk slows and the universal hype reduces to small pockets. The question becomes, why do myths of the flood last so long, spanning thousands of years? Even without mass media and handler to manipulate, these myths lingered. There had been thousands of years for the doubters to undermine the myths, but even this did not cause their hype to atrophy like celebrity.

    There is a difference in terms of how these two versions of mythology (modern hype mythology and ancient mythology) impact the human psyche; Obama the new Messiah lasted a few years for millions of faithful but not even 1000 years. Celebrities fade even with media hype. On the other hand, even with a concerted effort to discount and reprogram people, this is not enough to cause the flood mythology to fade. This difference has something to do with how deep in the psyche these things impact the mind. The shallow things grow stale in a short time. But the deeper things linger.

    If you look at any novel, on the best seller list, there is hype and excitement as the talk spreads like a virus. But in a few months, the psyche's immune system kicks in and the fad is replaced by another. But myths of the flood is like a virus that enters the DNA to become a part of you. Once it is genetically part of you, words and game are not enough to get people to deny what is inside them. These last for thousands of years.

    The approach I take is not to pretend a fad is the same as that which has been proven to linger for thousands of years. Rather I try to figure out why the difference. It is connected to brain firmware and commands lines connected to their operating system.
     
  9. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Or the fact that one is deliberately kept alive and promoted while others - like "celebrities" - get old/ lose their skills/ die and/ or get supplanted by a new novelty.
    You're not comparing like with like: leads to automatic fail.
     
  10. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, indeed; flooding impacts deeply on the psyche. I live more than a thousand miles from the ocean so melting icecaps hold no terror for me - but folks around here are equally terrified of getting water in their basements every time it rains a little. Floods may or may not be a danger to human life but the danger to our stuff seems to be as deeply engrained in our psyches. In Biblical times the stuff was livestock; today it's carpeting and furniture.

    Again, it's no mystery that flood stories linger.
     
  11. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    God's judgment is not the point, nor is it the threat. His atheism is irrelevant given the standards to be used.
     
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Wehehell . . . Isn't that SPECIAL ??? :bugeye:

    Associating... Associating... I've got it: this is a double exposure. First you shot a view of the day room at Happy Hollow Hospice. Then you superimposed a shot of your favorite 1969 poster of Eric Clapton next to your bed right above the incense burner.

    I said and I quote: the Hebrew flood myth was taken from the earlier Mesopotamian flood myth. If you have no facts or evidence in rebuttal then by default you admit that my statement is true and correct.

    How quaint. So that explains your last several bans.

    How about you think upon just one of them: Mesopotamia.

    Yes I've been expecting a rebuttal to my statement that the Hebrew flood myth is taken from the earlier Mesopotamian flood myth. But since none has been forthcoming we must conclude that, by default, you have adopted my proposition. I understand why you are experiencing catharsis in the self portrait below.

    Man I hope so. I sure would hate for anyone to think I was a Thumper.
    So basically what you're telling me is that Thumpers believe that size (and presumably color) matters. I did not know that.

    Is this you at the British Museum just after you had seen the Babylonian tablets?
    Don't worry. The tic will subside as the shock wears off.

    Nor do people who agree unless they have something to add. Gee, I wonder why you posted here?

    It suggests that bible thumpers have no idea how to deal with the tablets sitting in the British Museum. Do you?
    You mean bible thumpers are not appreciative of what scribes at the library of Ashurbanipal wrote onto clay tablets in the 7th century BCE. I would have to agree with you there.

    Evidence that the source material used in the OP is a fraud is not meaningful to you?
    I'm beginning to see why you have nothing to add.

    You mean you didn't click on the link in the OP? You haven't heard of Ken Ham's Fred Flintstone museum? And you weren't aware that the First Crusade of the creationist war on science was the Scopes Monkey Trial? Well then just treat all of this as a news flash and we will give you a few moments to compose yourself.
    If you look up and then down you will notice that neither Arne nor Photizo are in a position to lend you a crying towel.

    What's not very pretty is that you don't talk about them.

    I was responding to Arne. I was describing the subterfuge of introducing creationist propaganda in a thread that purports to want to use scientific and anthropological evidence. The only predefined views I have of Arne come from his admission a long time ago that he participated in a conspiracy to troll science boards. At first it seemed like he was seeking redemption but obviously he has been slipping.

    I'll take your reluctance to admit or deny the Babylonian tablets as your default admission that my posts are true and correct.
     
  13. Balerion Banned Banned

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    The master at work!
     
  14. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    "The master at work!"
     
  15. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    The flood happened. Varying accounts exist. Pick your poison. All lead to death in one form or another, but only One leads you through to the other side.
     
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Floods happen - plural. "The flood" did not.

    Multiple floods, multiple accounts. Go figure.
     
  17. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    No. The entire landmass was never submerged, as evidenced by the nature of the geologic record. And no. There was never a global extinction event, as evidenced by the nature of the fossil record. And no. Even if all the moisture on earth magically vaporized it would leave behind basins, which, when refilled, would deplete the atmosphere of all excess moisture before any of the landmass would become submerged.

    No, there are no accounts of a global flood. It was not until after 1492 that anyone had any idea how much land mass there was on earth. And since 1492 none of the continents have been submerged. So no, there are no such accounts.

    And no. There are not various myths about every continent being submerged. The mythology predates the discovery of the continents. There is only one myth under which you were programmed, and it originated in Mesopotamia under a religion you are unwittingly demonstrating allegiance to, and that is the Babylonian religion.

    Anyone who claims allegiance to the flood myth of the Bible is claiming allegiance to Ba'al, among a dozen other gods, since that is the religion(s) that created the story which was hacked by the Hebrews and repackaged by fundamentalists as fodder for naive minds to swallow, lock, stock and barrel

    Other than drowning? :bugeye:

    You mean Ba'al. And Marduk. And Ea and dozens more. Yes they will lead you to the other side: to the paranormal and pseudoscience threads at the bottom of the homepage where crank rant ends up.
     
  18. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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    I wasn't programmed...all you speak of is information that is easily accessible.

    I was purchased with His Blood.

    His Spirit and His Word have provided my mind a panoramic perspective you can never realize from your limited vantage point i.e. your own unaided mind, the unaided minds of others like yourself observing an inanimate landscape...earth bound and imprisoned within your own cranium. Everything you say testifies to your sources--all untrustworthy by definition. The stubbornness, arrogance, condescension, and certainty with which you speak appears foolish (can't 'see' that? hmmm, why not?) when all you 'know' originates from where it does.

    Remember what I said about the standard by which you will be examined....Consider how utterly lacking in understanding your assessments, pontifications, dismissals, etc. will appear to you when placed in the LIGHT of that Reality of Whom you remain willfully ignorant of.

    :shrug:
     
  19. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    Well you better hope that you are praying in just the right way, and are a memeber of just the right sect or you will go to hell. Considering all of the different religons the chance that you picked the right sect is mighty slim.

    Me on the other hand, have no worrries because I am an athiest and as such cannot go to hell because there is no hell.
     
  20. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Well you weren't born with these ideas in your head. Nor did you get them by paying attention in class. So that leaves programming, since there is no such thing as magic.
    The most accessible information ever given to you was in school. But all of that had to be thrown out so that some highly inaccessible information, arising out of the obscurity of religious tradition, and requiring you to pit magic against best evidence, could insert itself as the proxy for informed reason. Were it not for that we might be able to say you had not been programmed.
    That's another myth for another day. Today we're talking about the myth of Noah's Ark. What we've shown here is that bible thumpers have purchased that for the price of their intellect.
    The words pneuma and logos have been obscured through translation outside of the cultural context. These are words from Greek stoicism. You are effectively worshipping the icons of Socrates' cult, hybridized through cross pollination with cults like Agnosticism and Mithraism, foreign to this older cult, Judaism, which borrowed its flood myth from its arch enemies, the Babylonians. Christianity was smelted by syncretism, not forged anew in heaven, as the myths about the Annunciation, the Immaculate Conception and the Nativity would have you believe.

    LSD will do that. But in the other sense so will graduating high school and going on to get a college education or otherwise developing the faculties that inform human perspective.
    My vantage point is not blurred by the lens of fundamentalism. I have a 20/20 view to the best evidence and I'm not obligated to reject any of it like you are. But I can see how you would feel threatened by that.

    My posts are aided by facts and evidence. Here I have propounded the 7th century BCE flood myth from the Epic of Gilgamesh. As you see not not a single person has offered any evidence to the contrary. Since you haven't contested my posts then by default you admit to them.

    And by that you mean people who are not Christian fundamentalists. That's the vast majority of the world's population. So what you're saying is that your religion not only requires you to throw out tens of thousands of tablets in the British Museum but in addition you have to throw out all knowledge, all discovery, and all evidence collected by more than 90% of the world's population.

    All that just to cling to the belief that myth is properly interpreted as historical narrative.

    Ignorance is the prison of the intellect. Scholarship tears down the walls and sets it free. And since the body is confined to the earth it is necessary for the intellect to live here too. When it's not doing that we call it psychosis. That's one of the reasons that religiosity shows up on the psychopathy checklist. Alienation from reality can become permanent.


    My source was the British Museum. Fundamentalism removes you so far from reality that you have to manufacture an endless supply of absurdities like "the British Museum can't be trusted." So much for that panoramic view you were gloating about.

    Through the lens of fundamentalism quite a few things appear backwards.
    Every institution of science, history, sociology and anthropology threatens its existence. So you must erect walls to shut them all out. And yet you joined the club Arne belongs to, which dedicates itself to trolling science forums, as if this will wrestle the devil to the ground. How's that working for you so far?
    Because I am not blurred by the lens of fundamentalism. No religion can obstruct my view of the best evidence. I can open the text of the flood myth from the Gilgamesh Epic and plainly identify the features which appear in the Bible version. You can't do that. Your programming won't allow it.
    Indeed. From best evidence. I can see how, through the lens of fundamentalism, that can appear to be evil.
    I passed my exams. How about you?

    Since that's only going to take place in your mind I won't be there to congratulate you for winning the prize behind door #1. But crack that whip and rattle that chain if it makes you feel good. After all this is obviously all about you.

    Your attempt to discredit the British Museum fails. By default then you are in agreement that the Hebrew flood myth evolved from the earlier Mesopotamian flood myth.
     
  21. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    Have you read the Aborigine version of the flood myth. This is different from one's above. This is where atheist deny evidence.

    The Aborigine myth begins with some cruel children tormenting and torturing an owl. The owl is a symbol natural human instinct, which is being injured. As a bird of prey it comes from the sky, from above, to catch its prey. This symbolizes natural instinct comes from the mind as an instinctive urge.

    The children; new humans, beat the owl and pull out all his feathers. They try to break the connection to the natural flow of instinct between mental impulse and reaction feedback. Although they repress their instincts for something willful and manmade, the owl eventually flies upward to the heaven. The western version is more direct and tells about corruption and perversion needing to be purged.

    What is interesting is the Aborigine gather different animals from Noah.
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There is more than one story tradition among the various peoples aboriginal to Australia. That is one place where fundamentalists betray their ignorance - not to say bigotry.

    A little while ago you were arguing, with Photizo, that the similarity of all the Flood stories argued for a common inspirational event. At that time the non-fundies (the religious theist, the areligious theist, the religious atheist, and the areligious atheist, all together) pointed out to you that Flood stories worldwide have little in common besides a Flood and ensuing hardship. That argues for the more sensible and evidence supported (actually, established: fact) view that, since almost all humans have suffered catastrophic floods of various and dramatic kinds, them having stories about various and dramatic flood events is not mysterious or in need of extraordinary explanation.
     
  23. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    I am reading a book which contained a chapter on the history of the Aral Sea. Because of dams constructed on its feeders, by the Soviet Union, it is rapidly becoming a desert. This desert contains traces of settlements that once existed before the Aral Sea got to its maximum size. More flood stories?
     

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