Why Should We Be Good?

The only reason any of us are ever good is that we are afraid of what will happen to us if we are not. Human instinct is self-preservation. Human behaviour is defined by other humans, and society in general. Those who do not conform to these norms and standrards risk expulsion in one form or another, and most humans can not countenance being alone.

It has nothing to do with individual values.
It has nothing to do with Karma.
It has nothing to do with an afterlife or eternal reward.

It has EVERYTHING to do with primal fear, more specifically the fear of being alone.

Tyler says, "In the end, every human being does what they want to do."
He's right, up to a point, but doesnt delve into WHY this is the case. What is it that makes a person decide what it IS that he wants to do? Ever asked yourself? really?

Xev, getting all nietsche-ish...

"To first refrain from harming others.
To protect the weak, and to render what assistance you can to those who need or desire it, yet not revel in their weakness. To seek to improve oneself, and to keep an open mind to one's faults. To control oneself with the aforementioned reason, logic and skepticism. This is often the greatest battle. To fight against injustince, and not to cringe before the expression of power. One in fact will accumulate power in this way, but not a power of the regular sort.

For such a life no recompense is given, it must be desired simply for what it is. It is its own reward."

Again, a lot of philosophical goo without any logical basis. WHY fight the harder battle? The last sentence in particular. What reward? Where? We're often TOLD it is it's own reward, but most people never see any benefit other than having a sense of having done what's right... BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE DONE SO. Not because they nessecarily have, but beause they BELIEVE they have, based on common opinion.

Sounds to me like you're all making excuses to justify whatever you think you morally are. Humans, even extremely intelligent ones, don't like coming to realise their whole self image is not what they think it is, and will therefore shy away from truth at any cost.

"to keep an open mind to ones faults". Again, physcho babble. Your "faults" are only those aspects of yourself which do NOT conform to society's (and, by extension, your own) expectations. Does that make them faults, or merely differences?

 

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Squid Vicious

I believe that fear of consequences is indeed a major driving force in most people. I'm a cynic. However, I also believe we do not have to be that way, and that we should all try to be more than that, as explained in my first post in this thread.

 

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I agree, Adam. I do not think that is the sum total of it but fear of consequences is indeed a driving factor.

 

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"I think, in the end, what it comes down to for me is my personal belief in humanity and the advancement of humanity. We can either remain animals, clubbing each other over the head for a deer corpse, or we can be civil and reach the stars. Does that mean law and order? No. Law is for people who can't control themselves. What it means is living up to that ideal, of leaving behind the clubs and reaching for the stars, and making it your own personal responsibility to contribute in some way toward that future. Even if your contribution consists of merely refusing to be the worst of what humanity has to offer. "

You mean this bit Adam?

Same response from me as Tyler got... it goes so far, but you do not explain WHY you believe this. It's all very well to say this sort of thing, but doing so without giving reasons why you believe it is worth nothing.

You would obviously believe in some form of after life yes? If not, then humanity's striving to reach the stars, and your small part to play in making it so, is ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS. Why bother? They'll never do it in your lifetime, and when they do you'll be DEAD... wormfood. nada. zip. squat. zilch. nothing. Imagine for yourself the TRUE concept of Zero. Envisage it. Thats you, dead.

The only valid logical reason for wanting to see humanity advance is if you believe that, at some point, even after death, you will see the fruits of your labour. Self-satisfaction. Anything else has no validation whatsoever.

 

Squid Vicious

No, I do not believe in an afterlife. Why do I think as quoted? I merely hope we can become better than we are.

 

"Tyler says, "In the end, every human being does what they want to do."
He's right, up to a point, but doesnt delve into WHY this is the case. What is it that makes a person decide what it IS that he wants to do? Ever asked yourself? really?"

All the time. It's an observation I've made and decided upon over a few years of thinking it over. What makes a person decide what they would rather do? Weigh the options and choose which one looks best. Some people are better than others at this in telling what will please them more in the long run.

 

Tyler...
"What makes a person decide what they would rather do? Weigh the options and choose which one looks best."

Bah. Phhht. You give me nothing.

What makes that option look "best" to them? Where does that decision come from?

 

"Bah. Phhht. You give me nothing.
What makes that option look "best" to them? Where does that decision come from?"

Whatever they feel is most going to benefit them. Logically figuring out what will most benefit them. I said earlier that some people are better at weighing options than others. Basically, all that means is that some people are better at logic than others and so can figure out better what will make them feel better.

 

AAAAAAAAAAARGRRRGGGHHH!!!! You're circling, circling.... look at that nice piece of dead fish, it's yours for the taking....


Ok, then, some people are better at making logical decisions at what will make them feel better.
Why then, having made a "logical" decision, does it make them feel better? What is it that makes that final decision "right" for them?

Damn i wish i was better at language...

That feeling of rightness, isn't it possible that this is merely a well disguised recognition that you have in fact done what you think you are expected to do, to conform to a preconcieved notion of "good"?

Ya know tyler, what you really need to do sometime is get yourself some REALLY good drugs (I'm not talking pot here), go out by yourself and have a long look way down deep inside you.

Ask yourself, "What do i believe" first. That part's easy.

Then ask yourself "WHY do i believe what i believe". This is harder. you have to set aside your beliefs for a second, and look only at the truth. It's hard, because those beliefs will keep creeping back in to stop you from thinking about them too much.
Think about when you started believing them. think about who else does.

When you've accomplished all this, think about what "good" is, and why you believe in your definition of good, in light of all you have recently learned.

Lastly, think hard about the answer that comes up. You wont like it. It's bloody scary.

 

Shrooms did that nicely. Though, I would eventually like to try somethign else.


Anywho.


"AAAAAAAAAAARGRRRGGGHHH!!!! You're circling, circling.... look at that nice piece of dead fish, it's yours for the taking...."

I know I am. I'm waiting to see what your point to this is. Incidentally, I think you're waiting for me to prove myself wrong.


"Why then, having made a "logical" decision, does it make them feel better?"

Given the option between sitting still for 2 minutes and having 18 sharp nives shoved into you, which would you choose? The 2 minutes of sitting? Why? Because, logically, it will bring you less pain than the other.

Given the option between watching a great movie and going out and playing 3 hours of hockey on a frozen pond I would choose the 3 hours of hockey. Why? Becuase it makes me feel better. Why? Because I enjoy it more. Simple as that.


"That feeling of rightness, isn't it possible that this is merely a well disguised recognition that you have in fact done what you think you are expected to do, to conform to a preconcieved notion of "good"?"

I see no need for an ultimate good in deciding what is best for myself. Do you?


"When you've accomplished all this, think about what "good" is, and why you believe in your definition of good, in light of all you have recently learned."

Good is something that is personally defined. I don't believe in a god or karma. So I don't believe there is any 'ultimate morality' or good. Every human being decides for themselves (obviously, with the input of people through their life) what is 'good' and what is 'wrong'. It is entirely a personal belief. Some would view going to war as 'good'. Others would view it as 'wrong'. Entirely a personal view.

 

I wasn't trying to get you to prove yourself wrong, I was trying to get you to see something which youre getting pretty close to but refuse to acknowledge. You get so close, then you back away from it.

However, this last statement i completely disagree with. Good is NOT defined by the individual. It is only refined, based on what they have already had defined for them. Good, morals, whatever you want to call them, do not differ substantially from whatever our surrounding society say they are, only in details.

You say some say going to war is good, while others say it is wrong. I say some people would see going to war as nessecary, while others see it as wrong. The fundamental concept of war being not "good" hasn't changed, only perceptions of the need for it.

 

"(obviously, with the input of people through their life)"

I'm guessing you missed this part of my paragraph. Oh well.

Anyway, what the hell is your point? Are you trying to show that society helps to shape a person's morals and ethics? Hoorah. Congragulations and welcome to Obvious Conclusions 101.

 

er... no Tyler. Never mind.

 

I'm glad we had this discussion. It's evident by your posts that you had a remarkable point to get across.

 

I'm glad too. I did, yes... I'm disappointed now.

My language skills, written, are usually not up to scratch... I'm trying to say something, people either get it or don't. my fault.

Tyler... every now and then I test the water. If the water is cold, I back off... if luke warm, I dive in. Sometimes I just climb straight back out again. Ce la Vie.