why muslims fast the islamic way?, and how their fasting services the human Good?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by cleese, Aug 18, 2010.

?

how you rate the main point of this thread (fasting)?

  1. this thread is logic and convincing

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. this thread either not logic , or not convincing

    6 vote(s)
    100.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    .

    lol, is that actually a question? i mean, asking why muslims, fast, on the way muslims do? how do you want them to do it then? on the hindus way?
    :bugeye:

    now, why don't you just say what you want, and say what you want to know or discuss about, if you really wanted to answer your question, you would have an answer days ago,but you want to show something, or to discuss about something, why don't you just ask what you want? and stop hiding your real question with pertending...
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    612
    Let me answer this question with another, can you stand on your head? Also, did you hear a slight whooshing sound by your head just now?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    .

    what does whoosing even mean?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    612
    click here
     
  8. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    Michael :
    first , thanks again for returning after a while
    second : first of all Michael, you should have realized that islam and muslims from the first moment were subject to many attempts of extermination. war was written upon muslims, they did not choose it (chapter2, verse 153).you really should read about the years of formulating the islamic state, so you dont misunderstand . and although the enemies of the new religion were killing muslims every day in the most brutal way you can imagine , the quranic commandment coerced them not even to defend their lives back . even when they emigrated to Madena (another place, where they might be able to live their chosen religion) , their enemies seized and confiscated all their wealth and belongings , but still the coercive command not to fight back. but when the whole arab peninsula planed to eradicate muslims (for their religion) the quranic command permitted (while hated) them to fight back (kindly , read the verse again).
    but why i chosen this to mention ? (also it seems that you forgot all the other rich knowledge forms the other verses mentioned) .i did, because if you study how islam planned war , you would see how noble prophet mohammad was , and how savage the UN and Geneva convention are if compared to islam and its nobleness here . thats why i mentioned it , to show you that islam has never abandoned virtue and mercy even when muslims are forced to fight back to lift injustice. the verse combined the mercy should be shown to the POWs to these should be shown to the orphan and the indignant . haven't you read the old testament? haven't you read the chapter of "numbers" to see how the God of the jewish commanded them to treat their enemies and to lie to them in their treaties ? . islam tells the muslim that when he is forced to fight back, he should treat his pow the same way he should treat the orphan and indignant . if islam in such a severe circumstances, commanded its followers to stick to mercy, and to show it that kind way in treating the pow like and orphan and indignant , and made this the muslim's worship. would you imagine how islam would be noble with people who are peaceful with it?
    i have no thing more to say sir . but if you do not appreciate that , it is up to you .
    but kindly , so i dont feel unjustice , see the whole picture, and study the whole text , dont pick the half of the picture then slay muslims for something they are innocent of it .
    thanks again
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  9. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    shadow1 :
    thanks for reading the thread , but i have already answered that question. and asked you all to comment the way you like , knowing that every person has the right to have a different point of view... i just offered mine . we are not enemies here ... we are friends . we all are concerned to search for the truth and to enrich our knowledge about the other.
    thanks , and you are most welcome .
     
  10. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    folks
    i mean no offend , but i urge you to read how the old testament (with all the due respect to the jewish and christian believes) managed wars against the other nations , how the old testament depicted the heroism of yaphtah, barak, jadeon and shamshon (in addition to many others including messengers) in killing and eradicating the other nations , in a way that even the new testament (Christianity) praised on the tongue of saint paul .
    and while the old bible honored only the jewish and the sheeps of the israelies with the conversion , quran says that "Allah (God) created you from the beginning from a male and a female,and from different tribes and nations , so you recognize each others, the most honorable is the most pious" .
    really , quran doesnt belong to the human behavior , and so did not receive the appreciation it deserves. it belongs only to the behavior of a human that wishes to be an angel,a pious .
    by the way sir , its the civilized europe that enslaved the other nations not islam, and again in the 12th century , it was the civilized europe that enslaved the other europians to germany and italy , then to the ussr not islam.
    islam according the prophet teaching after victory in battles and wars waged against him and against the muslims , he allowed the pow to be set free, with one condition, if he teaches 10 of the illiterate muslims how to read and write (thats what i am intending to explain about the Badr battle , and the peaceful victory in returning to Mecca) .
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    I completely agree that the God of the OT is a petty, jealous insane megalomaniac.

    Is Slavery allowed under Islam?


    It's a simple enough question.
     
  12. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    .

    i didnt say anything about you can't give your view, and about we're ennemies...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  13. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    under islam, what islam says? no
    under humans? yes
    it's like, law is against steeling , killing, drugs, yet, people do all that.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    So Slavery is immoral? It's against Islam?
     
  15. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    Michael :
    in a short answer : yes
    but , islam has a totally different and unique form of it
    .
    first : prophet mohammad says " dont say my slave , say my man and my woman" . so even in the name , slavery the way you know is banned in islam
    second : islam banned all form of slavery except that one of wars waged against it . so you dont want it ? fine , dont make aggressions against muslim countries
    third : islam designated the "emancipation of the subordinates (not the slaves) as the atonement of sins . so when you commit a sin (which is not compulsive) , you have to emancipate your subordinate (which is compulsive). so islam does not urge for having subordinates , it make that a punishment for every sin you commit . so how can you think that something made as a punishment for the sinner is favorable or preferable .
    fourth : you are not allowed (as the commands of the prophet dictate) to assign him the work you cant afford or tolerate.
    fifth : you are coerced (in islam only) to dress him the same you dress , and let him to eat from your table (the same table of food you eat on, not only from the same food),
    sixth : you are not allowed in any form or way, to torture him , and if you (as example) slapped him on his face , you are coerced (as the command of the prophet) to emancipate him and to declare him totally free .
    so , if again i remind you that how islam coerced his followers under the most severe circumstances to treat their POWs (food is the energy of life , but when you enemy attempts to eradicate you , rape you women, kill you daughters, you are coerced to do two things :
    a :chapter 8, verse 61 says :
    وَإِنْ جَنَحُوا لِلسَّلْمِ فَاجْنَحْ لَهَا وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

    meaning :
    But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things).
    so , you see the quranic command : your worship as a muslim when your enemies who are fighting you offer you peace , is to compulsively accept their offer. its not your freedom of choice , its your worship to do that .

    b : chapter 47- verse 4

    حَتَّى إِذَا أَثْخَنْتُمُوهُمْ فَشُدُّوا الْوَثَاقَ فَإِمَّا مَنًّا بَعْدُ وَإِمَّا فِدَاءً حَتَّى تَضَعَ الْحَرْبُ أَوْزَارَهَا ذَلِكَ وَلَوْ يَشَاءُ اللَّهُ لَانْتَصَرَ مِنْهُمْ وَلَكِنْ لِيَبْلُوَ بَعْضَكُمْ بِبَعْضٍ وَالَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَلَنْ يُضِلَّ أَعْمَالَهُمْ​

    meaning :
    ((when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost. )) end

    so , as you see , here again the worship of the muslim which is compulsive , when the combat is end , either you set them free for nothing (the first , and so the most preferred islamic choice) , or, substitute them for something in turn , but the first thing as muslim you are urged to do , is to set them free for nothing . (can you tell me where is the choice of killing the POW?).

    to continue :
    islam then banned all the known-before islam forms of so-called slavery (even the name) , set for one form , during wars waged against islam and muslim countries : (chapter 2, verse 190) :

    {190} وَقَاتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ وَلَا تَعْتَدُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْمُعْتَدِينَ​

    meaning :
    Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
    (Note : how quran attached defending back to Allah, so the muslim knows that its a worship, and he is stick to its virtue and niceties) .
    but even then , you (compulsively as your worship) will favor them with the food you most need, despite its scarcity and to treat them the way you treat the orphan and the indignant
    then , set them free for nothing first , if the circumstances permit so , or substitute them as a compensation for the damages they sustained you (you are not the aggressor).
    lastly , when they offer peace , its your worship to be peaceful with them , and to continue your worship the quran says " i - Allah- created you from a male and a female , and scattered you tribes and nations to you recognize each other, the most honorable of you is the most pious." end
    thanks for you attention
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  16. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    .

    yes
     
  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    I pulled a great quote out of the newspaper the other day, although apparently I didn't bother to write down who said it:
    In other words, justice advances or at least supports civilization, whereas revenge drags us back toward the Stone Age. That has always been my basic criticism of religion: despite the lovely language in the holy books and the charming quotes from the prophets, in actual practice religion reinforces our Stone Age instincts, like tribalism and revenge. Civilization will never be secure until religion dies out. Even today, the Christians, Muslims and Jews are trying their damnedest to destroy civilization. And they have much more powerful weapons now.
    That's not an answer! That's the way parents talk to babies: Do this because I say it's right; I don't have to explain it to you. This is pathetic. I can't believe that an educated, intelligent adult would give such a preposterous bullshit answer to a question that was asked in good faith! Religion really, truly sucks. Thanks so much for providing such a perfect example!

    One of my many other, more detailed criticisms of religion is that it never really answers questions.

    My wife says that men invent religions (and it's always men who invent them, isn't it!), so we never have to answer a question with "I don't know."
     
  18. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    Fraggle Rocker says :

    That's the way parents talk to babies: Do this because I say it's right; I don't have to explain it to you. This is pathetic. I can't believe that an educated, intelligent adult would give such a preposterous bullshit answer to a question that was asked in good faith! Religion really, truly sucks. Thanks so much for providing such a perfect example!

    One of my many other, more detailed criticisms of religion is that it never really answers questions.
    [/QUOTE]

    SIR :
    have you read the original thread ? have you read the answers islam provided?
    i think you should have not said that religion destroys civilization . because i am sure that you haven't even studied the three religions you have just mentioned. maybe you just know them as scratching the surface . the way the parent told baby about this religion or that .
    spend more time (and no offend here) in studying and learning , that would be better for you .
    thanks
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    I am quite familiar with the history of the human race for the past 2,000 years, since Christianity and Islam began metastasizing across this hapless planet like a cancer epidemic. It's a history of tribalism, hatred, violence and destruction. Every now and then a truly noble leader arises and attempts to put the Children of Abraham back on a course toward peace, in accordance with the teachings of their prophets. But it never lasts. There's always another holy war or even a blatant genocide coming along to eradicate any tentative progress.

    The human race is still healing from the outrages committed in the middle centuries of the last millennium in the name of Jesus and with the encouragement of the Christian leaders. The literal obliteration of two of the world's six precious independently-arisen civilizations (Inca and Olmec-Maya-Aztec) are sins of such a magnitude that they can never be atoned. We can never recover all the ideas that were destroyed by Christians in their campaign to rid the word of "heathen" culture. The followers of Jesus can never be forgiven for those acts unless they invent a time machine and go back and stop the Christian armies from invading the New World, with the blessings of Pope Urban.

    The depredations of the Muslim communities are no less reprehensible. The havoc they wrought on the civilization of Egypt is unspeakable. The only reason they were not able to obliterate it in the fashion of the Christians is that it had already been studied extensively by the Europeans and even though writings and cultural artifacts could be destroyed, the knowledge remained. Just in recent years the Muslim leaders of Afghanistan used modern explosives to destroy gigantic images of Buddha that had been carved into a mountainside a thousand years ago. They consider Buddhists "pagans" when in truth it is Jews, Christians and Muslims who have not managed to rise up out of the Stone Age.

    The Jews have the saving grace of not being an evangelical people, so their community only expands by reproduction rather than conversion, and it's still too small to wreak havoc on the scale of the Christians and Muslims. But judging by what they are doing today I have no doubt that a world with one billion Jews would be just as rife with tribally-inspired intolerance, persecution, warfare and ignorance as a world with a billion Christians and/or a billion Muslims.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  20. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    again sir:
    it seems that you haven't read the so-called old testament, to see how the god of the jews and their holy book in addition to their prophets , waged such a bloody campaigns of wars for a lie (promised land). this is not an offense , its what you read in the chapter of numbers as example .
    what they are doing now is just a symbol of their old testament' teachings.
    try to distinguish between the holy book of a nation , and their actual behavior. the most dangerous aspect of judaism (and christianity as well, since they share the same OT), is that violence and aggression against the other , is the teachings their holy book teaches.
    good luck
     
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    I did not excuse the Jews and it's disingenuous of you to take a small extract of my words out of context to make it seem that I did. The only thing that makes the Jews less bad (I refuse to say "better" when talking about Abrahamists) than the other Abrahamists is precisely that Judaism is not an evangelical religion, so there just aren't so many of them to cause trouble.

    Yes I have read much of the Old Testament and I understand that in this particular fairytale God told them to evangelize their monotheistic religion to all of mankind, in return for him freeing them from bondage in Egypt. The fact that they did not do so is, in their own mythology, the reason that God has been punishing them relentlessly for millennia. Everything from the destruction of the Temple and the conquest by the Romans, to the Holocaust and the "kindly" Brits giving them a brand new homeland that happened to already be somebody else's homeland, is God's punishment for the Jews breaking the Covenant. But their loss is our gain. At least I don't have Jews pounding on my door on Friday night trying to convert me to their idiotic religion, like the Christians do on Sunday morning with their idiotic religion. There just aren't enough of them to cover all the neighborhoods.
    I do. The Torah, the Bible and the Koran all give very good advice, although it's couched in amusing anachronisms such as not eating pork because in ancient times pigs were scavengers and their flesh was riddled with parasites. But the actual behavior of Jews, Christians and Muslims is, averaged over the centuries, shameful and abominable. Today we have Jews holding an entire people hostage for demanding their own homeland back, Christians denying science, and Muslims targeting artists for assassination (and in at least one case carrying it out) for exercising their sacred right of free speech.

    This is Stone Age behavior. It is inexcusable. Nothing the Jews, Christians and Muslims have accomplished in the name of good is good enough to atone for these evils.
    The Muslim community is just as violent and aggressive. The teachings of Mohammed, such as jihad, have been twisted into a commandment to wage holy war. Sharia is interpreted by many to justify making second-class citizens out of women. And, as I mentioned above, killing people for what they say, write or draw--what we Americans hold sacred in the name of "free speech."
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    24,276
    Probably not the reason, or not the most significant reason. Lots of human food needs to be handled properly to avoid poisoning, disease, and parasites - chicken and fish no less than pork.

    And the more plausible underlying factor also carries implications for the benefits of religion: the impoverishment of society as a whole for the benefit of a few. Pigs, in the societies in which their consumption is banned or held to be "disgusting" etc by religion, are an economic drain. There are examples, such as central and northern Scotland among the old cultures, that have nothing to do with Abraham.

    In countries whose agriculture or fishing produces waste and other food good for pigs but not people, such as central Europe or Ireland after the introduction of the potato, pigs are welcomed by religion. In these countries pigs are an economic boon, and the entire society is more prosperous overall for their husbandry.

    This major benefit of religion is not itself an anachronism: the regulating of society so that short term or strictly personal benefit is not indulged at severe cost to the long term social good, is or would be of great service to the most modern of industrial cultures.
     
  23. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,160
    .

    exactly, they always start discussing without having a clue, discussing, thinking it is like another thing they got in mind, they didnt really study about it, it's like, you got a maths test, and you go to pass the exam, while you don't even know what's in that exam, i mean, you still didnt study what you need to understand what you read in the exam, so, you keep, making phelosophy and bluffing and trying to gamble maybe you get an extra point, it's like that

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    when i came here, i expected educated adult people, who can understand and discuss, but, i was desepointed to figure, that when it comes about those threads, they are no difference than fandamentalists of ignorants, well, not all of them , hehehehe, but that's just about the relegion threads, not all
     

Share This Page