why muslims fast the islamic way?, and how their fasting services the human Good?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by cleese, Aug 18, 2010.

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how you rate the main point of this thread (fasting)?

  1. this thread is logic and convincing

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  2. this thread either not logic , or not convincing

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Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Clearly, those are just unfounded beliefs on your part, hence they can only be taken as serious as any other unfounded belief, which is not at all.
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I see you POV cleese, and I will say this.

    In primitive cultures this was possibly a good strategy to promote social harmony. In modern multicultural societies were a lot of people are not Muslim I don't think it is a good strategy. If you want to keep the superstition aspects to the form of fasting, that is fine, just pick ones that are complimentary to all people in society. Including the polytheists and atheists.

    IOW it would be nice to have healthy social activities that encompass all people in society and promote the welfare of all people in society. Of course, THAT is going to take a huge overhaul of social mythology. Something I don't expect to happen any time to soon.



    One last point. Ramadan doesn't work the way you dream it does. Muslims are not that charitable compared to even atheist/weak-Christian Americans. Even Shinto Japanese tend to be more charitable to non-Shinto than Muslims are towards non-Muslims. This then suggests Ramadan is actually retarding Muslims social integration with other non-Muslim people. Of which make up most people in the world.

    Try to also balance your views of the positive with reality.


    That said, I do like cultural activities like Ramadan. I'd like it even more if it were to encompass non-Muslims alike. Even more still if it didn't promote religious supremacism - which a hint of I detect in your post to be honest.
     
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  5. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    despite i respect the long times you spent reading my posts sir, and studying the matter , allow me to have the opposite point of view. its not me who needs to balance his view my friend.
    my ancestors are mixed (christians and muslims) and you have no idea about how familiar i am to both religions.
    any way ... muslims in their countries , dont have statistics about the amount of charity islamice teachings produce , not only through ramadan , but also through all its teachings. but i know for my self sir , am doing matchless Good and charity to my neighbors (muslims or whatever) poor or rich visible or invisible Good , which cant be found in any other religion nor social system.
    lastly, i have tried through my article , to shed light to one islamic aspect, it is not expected to enlighten its majesty through such an effort .
    thanks for every thing you done here sir
    and hope to stay connected .
    oh i almost forgot ... still hoping that you try it your self , for the continuous 30 days , then you will be able to be the judge ...
     
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  7. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Proof?

    Peace be unto you

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  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    See, actually it's this that I have the problem with - and it's really a problem with Islam in general. I see it again and again and again - a sense of religious supremacy. There's nothing wrong with thinking an ideology suite YOU well. There is something wrong with thinking YOUR ideology is better than anyone else's. In truth, Buddhists, Shinto, Taoist, American Native faiths, Mormonism, Shia, Sunni, Christian, Catholic, Hindu, Atheists, Scientologists etc... ALL of these people are equally charitable.

    You don't need a month of fasting to prompt good humane behavior.

    The sad thing is, whatever good may come of this, it's more than offset by the intolerant supremacist attitude.

    Looks to me like there is a good mix of countries who give aid.
    List of most charitable countries
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2010
  9. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    michael : the attitude of religious supremacy that muslims entertain for islam should not represent a problem , yes it might look vague for non-muslims, but this is the exact point. what we have discussed here , is just one of many islamic ways of re-formation. when you have studied them all , that attitude will not feel problematic any more .
    second , the solidarity shown within the muslim society is much beyond what you indicated with that link . because within these societies you call the most charitable , if they met you laying upon the ground poor or even hit by a car , they will just walk upon you , carrying on what they were doing . probably no one would exert an effort in even calling the ambulance for you . while if you have any one that visited muslims country , he would tell you what people are willing to do for you if that happened to you there. so not only monetary charity , but also all other forms of it . ask me in turn about life in new work (one state of that most charitable country if you like me to say so) .
    third : the ramadan month of fasting - once again - is an intensive compulsive course of re-formation. and you are urged to practice its visible and invisible way of life all of the year . its a pillar of that religion
    fourth: there might be a huge disparity between islam and muslims. for so , i ask you kindly to study islam from its pure resources , and study it all , not just this fraction or that . you would be amazed how the worship of muslims ranges from mercy for animals (where a woman was thrown into the hellfire because she locked up a cat , and where Allah became thankful to a prostitute for giving a thirsty dog some water in her shoes) , to studying every thing that respectful creator made in the universe, as a way to know him and his qualities . so what is different here .. is that these are the worships of muslims, that connection with the whole existence and universe is the worship of the muslim , and that balance is the worship of the muslim .
    faithfully , am grateful for your patience with me . thank you
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2010
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    What do you care about proof?
     
  11. Big Chiller Registered Senior Member

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    Jazakallahu khairan.

    But I doubt Michael is interested.
     
  12. firdroirich A friend of The Friends Registered Senior Member

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    "Fasting is only the saving of bread. Formal prayer is for old men and women. Pilgrimage is a worldly pleasure. Conquer the heart-its mastery is conquest indeed."- Sheikh Abdullah Ansari
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    cleese,
    I'm not saying Islamic styled fasting can not be rewarding. Nor am I saying Muslims can not be generous good people. What I am saying is that these are characteristics found in ALL people. This understanding is something we should strive for.

    Nice poem, I like it and would agree.
     
  14. Shadow1 Valued Senior Member

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    .

    here's what Michael want, not to realy discuss, or not really to know, he only want to know what he want to hear, wich is any thing to show about that islam is the relegion of terrorism and and and ...
     
  15. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    Michael : first , i have viewed many of your posts and replies , what a huge intellectual effort you have been exerting . allow me to honor you please ..
    second : sharp minds like you , are very welcome to comment , dont worry , i understand you very well .
    third , am sure when you have studied the whole islamic religion , you will confirm (just like me) that it is matchless , and superior when compared to other philosophies and believes (and i wish you allow me to have this point of view) . please be aware that prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and upon all the beloved honorable prophets) was just an illiterate sheepherder, but he mastered every thing , from marital romance to planing military defences . wish you have some time , to read his biography called " the sealed nectar" to see the unique life your self .
    fourth : its happiness to meet people who heavily employ their minds like you Michael . take care .
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    cleese,
    You do understand that there are billions of individual people on the planet, each with their own needs and desires? I find it very Christian of you to think a single shoe fits all people. But, my experience has been there are lots of different perspectives out there.

    One thing I notice is you continue to repeat: Islam is a matchless and superior philosophy, but fail to demonstrate how. Again, from my point of view, there are many different people and I think no one philosophy will fit them all. As a matter of fact, I have met many Muslim who are now non-Muslim (most Atheist a few are Christian). It's obvious Islam wasn't the "perfect" ideology for them.

    I admit, I may be wrong here. And so, I would like to give you an opportunity to share with me what you personally have discovered from reading Islamic philosophy. How were you personally enlightened by Islam? So, cleese, could you do that? Share this personal "Islamic" insight that has enlightened you - something none of the other religions teach. Only found in Islam.

    I've read writings of the Dali Lama, some of them I agreed with, others I didn't. However, it was evident that his Buddhist Philosophy had led him to certain personal truths. Of course, the Dali Lama is just a philosopher. YOU on the other hand have had the Creator God of the Universe itself to learn from. So, I will expect much, much, more from you.

    This shouldn't be hard at all. With God on your side.

    We are waiting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  17. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    19,125
    It is a belief you hold not based on anything other than your belief of what it is. The simple philosophy of humanism trumps Islam by leaps and bounds as it does not invoke invisible super beings and other forms of myth and superstition, and is dedicated to making things better for mankind rather than trying to destroy it.

    Let's not forget his military offenses, as well, which outnumbered his defenses.
     
  18. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    19,125
    Nonsense, you create a false scenario to support your belief system, how very disingenuous of you.

    You call that mercy? That is utterly barbaric.
     
  19. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    Michael :
    thanks again for your respectful replies .
    the matchlessness of islam (in my point of view of course) came from two things ,
    first : its comprehensiveness , where it explains almost every thing , connects causes and effects matchlessly , teaches you how to deal with the universe around and above you (e.g : have you read in my basic article how Quran coerce muslims to deal with their POWs during wars? (chapter of the man : 76/8-12) , the prophet's command to keep implanting plants even if the judgment day started during the planting process , do you know that in only two sources of the prophet's traditions , there are about 80 teachings of the prophet about how to show mercy upon animals , in 1400 years ago , even before the charters of human rights or the lies of UN . I have not had a need before to write a short search about the enigmatic aspect of comprehensiveness of islam , but i think there is a need for it here . and thats what i am going to do . to tell how islam organized the way you should look , think , and deal even with the far galaxies , as well as with your captives if you are pushed towards a war . such comprehensiveness , represents the huge responsibility the muslim takes before the whole existence , in brief , this is his worship .
    second : the talk about the respectful Creator of the universe , where it defines him as the following :
    " our God , is who gave every thing its form, then instructed it " , have you hared about formology?
    also :
    "he is the Creator, the giver of the proper functionality, the giver of the look (or the form)" .
    this is how islam defines the islamic God , and so , connects you with every thing he created , as a way to know him , not the theological theoretical way : Quran says " havent they scrutinized the realm of heavens and earth , and every thing that Allah (the God) created ?" . not only that , his talk about his self and the islamic way of worship extends to naming the Quranic chapters with the names of the creatures he created , where they are full of projections from these creatures's behaviors as if you are working in a lab , not reading a worship text (chapters of bees, spider, sun , the locations of stars (not the stars them selves) ......etc.
    so .. to worship him the islamic way , you should study every single item of his creation , so you can know him the islamic way , and extend your understanding to every thing in existence. he will not get any benefits from your worship, you will ..

    i had to reply soon Michael so you dont think i fail here . but the huge amount of the islamic knowledge should be expressed here , in addition a sudden question to a person who has never preached before (a man who is used to read only not to talk) , needs me a long time to organize and sum up them (knowing that the reflections pertaining fasting the islamic way , taken me about two years) . we will meet soon again with answers . i will try to do my best .
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
  20. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    the real barbaric behavior , is not the punishment for a crime committed , the barbaric one is committing such a crime against an animal that can not talk and complain . do you imagine what would happen to the number of murderers , if they knew that there is no execution for every murder committed?
    you should rethink again
    about supporting my belief , i really think that we should talk in a more civilized style rather than exchanging accusations.
    thanks any way , and kindly stick to logic arguments next time
     
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Of course it is, totally barbaric. Islamic "justice" isn't justice at all, it's eternal revenge.

    There's no need to rethink anything here.

    If you think such acts of barbaric insanity is civilized, then your belief system is completely wacko, pal.

    Are you sure you even know what logic is? It does not appear so.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I can't believe that of all of the things your have read and learned in the Qur'an and in Islam, you choose to justify your Religious Supremacism by verses covering the taking of POWs in violent war? THAT was your insight into humanity and the human condition?

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    OK cleese, what does Qur'an proscribe for POWs be taken in war?

    1) Can they ever be sold as Slaves?
    2) Do they have to pay money for their freed (ransom)?
    3) Will converting to Islam (effectively conversion under duress) change their POW status in any way?
    4) Did POWs ever have their heads chopped off in mass graves after a war?
    5) What about the POWs wives? Did Mohammad ever take a POWs' wife as his own (war booty)?


    Prisoners of war in Islam



    Women and children

    Muslim scholars hold that women and children prisoners of war cannot be killed under any circumstances, regardless of their faith,[19] but that they may be enslaved, freed or ransomed. Women who are neither freed nor ransomed by their people were to be kept in bondage and referred to as ma malakat aymanukum (slaves).



    WTF?
    Ma malakat aymanukum



    Oh, you have got to be kidding me. The Qur'an condones SEX SLAVES?!?!? THIS is your shinning example of an enlighten philosophy?


    I just about puked. Sex slaves cleese? I just don't know what to say. It's just sick. I mean, really really really sick and f*cked up.


    Look, assuming Islam derived from conservative Christianity then yes of course I'd expect decent good treatment for POWs, as that would be predicated on "Forgive your Enemy" and "Turn the other Cheek" but sex with female captives. That is NOT an enlightened approach and would indeed be a huge deviation from Christian theology. Another example theological politicking at work in the early formation of your belief. Probably on behalf of Kings and Military leaders. I just can not see Christians (even Conservative twats) condoning sex slavery.


    Again, I am shocked cleese.



    I'll tell you what, give it another go. Please look into yourself and think of one epiphany that the Qur'an has taught YOU PERSONALLY. As I am pretty sure YOU do NOT own a Sex Slave, and are not capturing POWs in war, please don't post this POW theological vomit again.


    Were YOU personally a POW or owned a POW? No. OK then, please post from YOUR personally experience and learning.


    I am asking YOU cleese, YOU to tell me something YOU learned. Do not just quote the Qur'an, don't parrot someone else's interpretations, just think about YOU and YOUR PERSONAL enlightenment. You have read the words of a God cleese, of a GOD cleese, this will be a snap for you I am sure.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
  23. Ja'far at-Tahir Grand Ayatollah of SciForums Registered Senior Member

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    Official Fatwa From the Office Of Imam Ja'far at-Tahir:

    Q: Why do Muslims fast the Islamic way?
    A: Because it is the Islamic way.

    Thread closed.
     

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