Why is it taboo to discuss the responsibility of victims?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wynn, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    23,499
    Great. Now tell me how a rape victim is 'negligent'? How about the 4 year old girl Wynn stated was somewhat responsible and complicit in her own rape? I ask you because Wynn specifically said that she would leave me to you to explain.

    So please, explain, with your legal experience, just how a rape victim is negligent when she is raped? How does she contribute to her own rape, as you seem to be applying contributory negligence into the mix? What proper precautions should women take to not be raped? What about a 4 year old girl? Now, you should know that women are raped in their homes by their family members, spouses, boyfriends and partners, friends, teachers, doctors, nurses, strangers. Since we are dealing with criminal law here, please, state your case.

    Wynn advised Chimpkin that she contributed and shared responsibility to her own rape when she was 4 years of age. When I took umbrage with her statements, she advised me that she would leave me to you to explain, as I linked and explained above. So please, explain to me how Chimpkin was negligent as a 4 year old and how she is legally responsible for her own rape.

    I await your response with much eagerness.
     
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Confusion of Guilt

    Didn't read enough Ferenczi?
     
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  5. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Erm...insurance company???
    Maybe we'll be caught up enough on the bills to insure the house contents in the spring. Cars? not worth more than liability/uninsured motorist.
    I lock the front door, but I walk out it a lot without my keys...I know how easy it is to kick it in. If the 70-pound bullmastiff cross doesn't scare them off...

    An auto accident...or " failure to control speed / yield right of way " does not happen with the same kind of malicious intent on the part of the perpetrator as a robbery, an assault, a rape.
    Accidents are a result of someone's momentary or sustained failure to operate a car with proper caution and care.

    Victimization, on the other hand...entails a malicious person looking for an opportunity. Vast difference of intent in the party at fault.

    Do you always, always live your life watchful? Every minute?
    Not easy, is it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
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  7. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Blaeeeh... :truce:

    Jesus F***king Christ. On a stick. This is where I got on this merry-go-round, perhaps I will get off here... From over three years ago:
    Look, I started here at one position, have learned a lot, but still (yes that was "still") believe that on a a micro vs macro scale, don't provoke the fucking rapists!"!!!

    This does not mean that the mysoginist, schizophrenic, psychopathic rapist dogs from hell are not 100% culpable for their behavior, but let's get real. Don't walk down SoHo beach nude at night, don't peruse the opium dens wearing only your underwear, etc.

    This, hopefully, will reduce your chances of being raped - male, female, hetero, bi, homo, inter, or any other sexual.

    Don't flash you're Rolex while walking in the city. No this doesn't insinuate that women are akin to rolex's. Nonetheless, I will still admonish my daughter for pushing the issue, just as I would admonish my ex's sons for similar behavior. Just don't do it!

    If you fuck up, you're increasing your chances of being fucked up.

    Does this make it right? No.

    Does this excuse or even mitigate the rapist responsibility? Fuck no.

    Does any of this mean that you should provoke the assholes out there? No.

    No. No. No.

    Every woman I've ever been intimate with has a "rape story". Was it her fault? No.

    I've killed in combat and been near mortally wounded. I've been here half a century. I have a friend who has "died" clinically - twice. Many of my friends are no longer waking the planet. I've jumped from perfectly good planes and been "inserted" via fast boats - "Duck if the bullets are flying".

    Is that bad advice?

    I thought at one point that all of you (you know who I mean) were a bunch of armchair wusses without a clue. Since then, I've gotten to know several of you, at least from a voyeur's position. You're not stupid. You're not streetdumb. You know what you're talking about, and regardless of some posters' behavior, the average IQ here beats the sh*t out of your regular, normal Saturday night crowd at the bar. How can you all be this stupid about this simple of an issue?

    When anyone mentions "rape" and "culpability" in the same sentence, everyone rushes to defend the victim. Laudable. Beautiful. Now, tomorrow, tell your sons and daughters, your sisters and brothers, to "be careful". Yes?

    I got banned for advocacy of this position by someone I now consider to be an "internet friend". (Tiassa) What think all ye now? Should I be banned for saying "Be careful" to my loved ones? Without bounds? Hmmmm? Really?

    Didn't think so...

    Maybe we should all just ban Gustav for a change.

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  8. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    I'm on board with that.
    I'm saying...taking precautions are just playing the odds. You should certainly take them.
    No guarantees.
    Threat not eliminated.
    You know that.

    And if your precautions are not good enough...you are still not to blame.
    Foolish, stupid, pigheaded...ok, maybe.
    But that doesn't absolve your attacker, who made a conscious choice to harm you.
    That's what I've been trying to get across, and not to you, Rand.

    Besides that...not provoking them?
    I mean, honestly!
    I think the qualifications for a sex partner for some people are a penetrable orifice, breathing and can't effectively escape!

    Bernie Madoff is still in prison.
    Bernie does not get to say, "They were a bunch of idiots, they were just asking to be taken," and go free.
    And the investors were a bunch of idiots. But Bernie's still to blame.
    Get it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
  9. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,188
    OK - I've regained my breath.

    Thanks for understanding, chimpkin.

    And yes, you are absolutely correct,
    No guarantees. Life, at least mine, doesn't have any of those...
     
  10. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    We are not responsible to prevent the crimes that may be perpetrated against ourselves and others.

    But we are responsible not to be negligent and we are responsible to learn from our mistakes and resolve not to make the same mistake again.

    This is the most anyone can do, the most that can be expected from anyone.
     
  11. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,188
    Aaaaahhhhh....

    /Randwolf runs screaming from the virtual hangout.

    Too much logic and good sense here tonight.
     
  12. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    43,184
    You must be mistaken..
    You know where you are.
     
  13. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    I wonder why some people interpret the discussion of victim responsibility
    as an attempt to exonerate the perpetrator.


    It is clearly evident by the posts that nobody suggested that the perpetrator was blameless.


    A good article on the topic: Do Crime Victims Deserve Some Blame?
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

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    23,499
    Like the 90 year old granny raped in her home while she slept? That flanny nightie was way wayyy too provoking. The slut!

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    And people do this often?

    Does that mean if I walk down SoHo beach at night in clothes or peruse the opium dens while clothed from head to toe I will not be raped? How about if I go out to dinner with a long time friend, wearing a knee length skirt and a shirt (was in business clothes after work) and he escorts me to my car to get my jacket (because you know, there could be someone lurking in the carpark) and he then tries to rape me? What precautions should I have taken exactly? Chastity belt and loaded gun? Private guards?

    Just stayed home and not gone out with someone I had known for a long time and considered to be a friend?

    Be careful of whom exactly?

    Grandpa? Grandma? Uncle Dave? Be careful of Daddy or Mummy? Be careful of your older brother or sister? Be careful of your teachers, scout leaders, priest, school bus driver, friend's parents, sibblings, family members, etc?
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    23,499
    I'm sorry, but you told a woman that she was partly responsible and complicit when she was raped when she was 4 years of age. Really, no one cares what you think or believe.
     
  16. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,188
    Please, Bells? I'm not up to this tonight...

    You know exactly what I'm saying, its all been said before.

    In this context, I would ask you, stop trolling!
     
  17. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    One should always be careful.

    Numerous books have been written esp. for women who are victims of crime.
    The points that these books often emphasize is that one should have good personal boundaries, not let oneself get carried away by emotion, listen to one's gut feeling, have personal goals and priorities and so on.


    A selection of such books:

    Women Who Love Too Much: When You Keep Wishing and Hoping He'll Change

    Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them : When Loving Hurts and You Don't Know Why

    Ten Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives

    No More Christian Nice Girl: When Just Being Nice--Instead of Good--Hurts You, Your Family, and Your Friends

    Nice Girls Just Don't Get It: 99 Ways to Win the Respect You Deserve, the Success You've Earned, and the Life You Want

    Nice Girls Don't Get Rich: 75 Avoidable Mistakes Women Make with Money

    The Nice Girl Syndrome: Stop Being Manipulated and Abused -- and Start Standing Up for Yourself

    Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office: 101 Unconscious Mistakes Women Make That Sabotage Their Careers



    Links are here.
     
  18. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,188
    No, but you might run into me!

    That would be fun - meeting one of my Sci friends on SoHo...

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  19. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Hi Enmos - long time, no see...

    As to your post, no worries - Bells is here to save the day!

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  20. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    4,188
    Apologies up front for multiple posts...

    Anyways, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes's... Geeez...

    Be careful in general. I think I have earned enough "cred" here to ask/say this, no?

    Thanks...
     
  21. elte Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,336
    Feeling victimhood is a personal feeling that should be respected by society.

    Society should focus on getting people to understand why ethics doesn't permit crime. Crime, counter measures to prevent it, and imparting justice to discourage it, cause inestimable waste of human potential and energy. I have been thinking that in monetary terms, a figure of trillions of dollars per year of cost is well possible for just the United States, tens of trillions per year world-wide especially if crimes committed on the behalf of countries are included.

    Even a relatively small thing like dealing with a bicycle lock costs me something like a couple hundred dollars worth of labor per year.
     
  22. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    4,416
    That's rather a bit different.
    So you basically think we should never trust or let our guard down with anyone? even as children?

    Children have certain needs for bonding that have to be met...severe enough neglect during the first two years of life actually causes retardation. Seriously.
    Rumanian orphanages?
    If children learn they cannot trust the people around them, they tend to become either sociopathic or self-destructive.
    Too, a child has no frame of reference. Whatever mom and dad do is right. They are gods striding over the landscape, all actions of theirs are seen as just, any abuses or injuries the child receives are usually interpreted by the child as said child's fault.

    Too, if one parent abuses, the other one usually denies. Or they both abuse.
    And protecting oneself when one stands waist-high to the people beating you up means getting someone else to believe it's happening.
    If you even tell, because, of course, you are told it's your fault, you believe it.
    How can a child protect him or herself from the persons entrusted with their care?
    Anyway, way past bedtime.
     
  23. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,188
    OK.

    Here we go.


    From the start, let's define a few words...

    Threat.
    Precaution.
    Reasonable.
    Scope.
    Trust.


    Do you see where this is headed? This is an old, old thread...

    But I will finally give up the goods - yes, there is a story here.

    An "If only" story - as in, If only I had been there, If only I could have been between the assailant and the "victim", etc...

    Is everybody fucking happy now? Took three years, but now you have the goods. Unless you work for "The Sun", "The Enquirer" or some other tabloid, y'all need no more - and should know less...
     

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