Why is it taboo to discuss the responsibility of victims?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wynn, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    Actually under the new laws if your too intoxicated you cant give consent (I do find it amusing that this law technically applies to everyone so even if your regular partner is drunk and frisky its rape but *meh*), the odd thing is that they haven't taken this to its logical conclusion, i.e. if you cant consent because your intoxicated how can you have criminal intent in other circumstances (including technically rape, i.e. if your both equally intoxicated it could be a case of first to the cops DOESN'T go to jail)
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,978
    If someone is too intoxicated (or under the influence of drugs as well for example), then they are unable to actually give consent. If you read the words in the image.. 'she couldn't say no'.. she was too drunk to say no, so how can she say yes..

    See?

    Just because someone does not say no does not mean that they are saying yes, this is especially so in instances where the individual is either too young or intoxicated or even asleep or unconscious.

    ________________________________________________

    GeoffP

    Do you really think it is appropriate to bring up any image of pedobear in a thread where child rape was being discussed, especially when one considers that some members who have participated in this thread are victims of child sex abuse?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,416
    It was pretty inappropriate....

    I laughed though.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I have a warped sense of humor.

    @Oleander...if you get drunk and pass out, and then get raped, it isn't your fault.It was still the rapist's decision to rape, not yours.
    You probably would have been wise not to have done that, but did you make the decision to receive an assault? NO. Are you responsible for what someone else chose to do to you when you were helpless? again, no.

    Starting to feel like a scratched LP...how many ways do I have to say it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. birch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,077
    how often do men get drunk or pass out from drunkenness? i guess women find it too disgusting to want to molest them.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I don't recall anyone so saying, but I shall remove the offending image of course. I was hoping, since I hadn't seen any action in a day or two, people might abandon the thread; admittedly this was a pretty far hope but the bloody thing sticks out like a weeping sore.

    See, the problem really is that the thread exists. It's well to talk about an issue, so as to inform our understanding thereof, but... this? Really? It's a foregone conclusion: no, it is not the fault of the victim. I mean, I can hardly express my dismay at it. Surely there's no point discussing it any further. If you get it, you get it, and if you don't... well. Frankly, I recommend closure and a stiff warning in red for something. It's passed the point of absurdity.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Ah, bullshit. No one is literally too drunk to say no unless they unconscious.
    People in general just become more easy-going and take higher risks when they are using alcohol. That doesn't mean they cannot say no, it just means that their behavior is influenced to the point that they might agree to something they would otherwise not agree to.
    If I cross the road without looking I might get hit by a car. People have responsibilities of their own.
    If you don't want to agree to something you might later regret, don't get 'too drunk to say no'.

    And, by the way, how is the so-called 'offender' supposed to know if someone is 'too drunk to say no'?
    If the picture is to be taken seriously, partners (for example) are continuously raping each other.

    IMO, in order to accuse someone of rape you first have to prove malicious intent.
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Because she's not in a rational position to agree.
     
  11. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    How does one establish that, especially if the so-called rapist has used alcohol himself?
    Does that mean that all people that ever had sex with alcohol in their blood were raped?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    What percentage of the population would that be...

    If a guy drinks a six-pack and then has sex with a girl that is sober, has the guy then been raped?

    If both have consumed alcohol and then have sex, did they then rape each other?

    I'm sorry, but I find this reasoning absurd. Insane even.
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    ....

    All right. Against my will, I will offer an opinion. At the minimum, a man who is not inebriated having sex with a woman who is inebriated is taking advantage. This could be called rape.
     
  13. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    And the other way around?
    It's only taking advantage if the guy knows the womans faculties have been incapacitated.
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,978
    So instead of placing the onus on the rapist to not rape, you think the onus is on the potential victim to never be drunk so that she cannot be raped?

    If someone is pissed as a fart (for lack of a better expression), they are in no mind to possibly understand their actions or even understand what is happening to them. Therefore, they are not in a position to actually consent to anything. If you'd tried to get them to sell you their belongings for a dollar, the courts would rule against you, because they were not in their right mind to make such a decision. Yet you seem to believe that they can be in their right mind for a guy to stick his penis in her vagina? Do you see what I am getting at here?


    So you are saying that the rapist should get off if he/she is drunk? It is quite obvious when someone is that drunk.


    When someone sticks something in your vagina, anus or mouth without your consent, that tends to show malicious intent regardless.
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    umm, you want to be more specific with that? A fair percentage of sex would be under the influence to a degree and its definitely not "taking advantage". For instance what about someone's wedding night? if one partner doesn't drink all of a sudden they are taking advantage? My birthday PB took me to the wine region, she didnt drink because she drove, we had sex, did she take advantage of me? Another example, one day I came home from work and PB was all "Dressed up", as soon as I walked in she ripped off my pants and ... She had been drinking but she was DEFINITELY the initiating partner, do you really think I was taking advantage?
     
  16. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    So whenever I have to sign a contract I better be sure to have some alcohol in my blood so I can have it nullified later on if it suits me.
    Adults have responsibilities. I'd say that one of them is to make sure you don't drink yourself into a stupor.
    Should I carry a device that can establish what the others blood-acohol content is before proceeding to have sex? And what is the threshold after which you can say that she can't say no anymore?
    If someone that is drunk has sex with someone that is not drunk, it has to be established that the person that was not drunk proceeded with malicious intent before you can accuse him/her of rape.
    And what if both drank alcohol? Did they then rape each other?

    Huh? I'm not sure what you are suggesting here.
    Are you suggesting that someone that is too drunk to say no is not too drunk to asses whether or not someone is too drunk to say no?
    If so.. Absurd!

    So you give consent every time you and your husband have sex? If you don't, he raped you.
    You two never ever had sex while having drunk alcohol? If you did, he raped you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  17. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Oh my god, man! You've been raped!!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,714
    I wonder would the same count if someone was grieving and you provided a little more than a shoulder to cry on?
    Wonder how far people can stretch this reasoning. :shrug:
     
  19. Enmos Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    43,184
    Perhaps a questionnaire should be developed with which you can establish a persons mental state before having sex..
    I guess we all have to become psychologists just to have sex.


    Although, I guess it would be a good thing after all as it would certainly cause a significant decrease of the global population.
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,978
    The point of absurdity was passed a while ago when I was challenged to a formal debate by Randwolf. The question was to have been:

    "Can risk management techniques be applied to rape mitigation?"​

    Now he was so confident that he boasted that he would only have to make one post and he would win.

    At first I refused, because really, it was a ridiculous proposal. But he pushed so I agreed. And I felt so guilty because I knew that I had the ability to humiliate him quite badly in that debate and I even discussed it with a colleague as to whether it would be fair or appropriate to not point out to him beforehand the terrible mistake he made in wording the question as he did. I had tried to gently guide him at first towards not asking the question that way, but he was adamant. So out of guilt and really, by that point it would have been painful to me to get to him that way, I started to drop hints as to why the wording he used was really, well, bad. This was mixed in with his confusion about me and what he perceived as our, ermm.. well.. apparently having fought about this before back in 2008 (I had actually fought this issue with a poster named angrybellsprout at the time, not Randwolf).

    When the hints were not taken seriously by him, and when others failed to make him realise his folly, I had to be a bit more direct. The point of absurdity was that question. He thankfully saved me from feeling like a big meany and cancelled the debate soon thereafter.

    This is not the only thread on this forum about this issue. I have been a member here since 2001 and since then, I have literally fought tooth and nail against people who believe that women are somehow at fault or share the blame if they are raped. This won't be the last time either.
     
  21. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,714
    That does seem to be the case these days. But you can't say that, you rapist defending misogynist.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    It's even stranger hearing such reasoning in Britain where most couples get together on a drunken night out! Must be odd to have so many married rapists. I've had quite a number of girls say they wouldn't have the confidence to even kiss a guy unless they'd consumed alcohol, in quite some volume. And they think *I'm* weird for not wanting to have sex with them in that state. :bugeye:
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,978
    Again, you are placing the onus to not be raped on the victim if she/he is drunk?

    As absurd as you being told you weren't raped if you go out and get drunk and wake up with a bleeding anus and a drunk guy sleeping next to you with your blood on his penis and a beer bottle he also used to jam up your backside, with no recollection of how you got there or how this could have even happened to you?

    Err yes.

    What a strange question! What? Do you think issues of consent do not matter or apply in a marriage or relationship? Do you think rape in marriage even exists? Or do you think that because I am married (well separated now), I don't get to say no or should not be allowed to say no?

    Well yes it would be.

    I never get drunk to the point where I am unaware of my surroundings or what is happening around me. And if I did and he used that as an opportunity to have sex with me, knowing that I was falling down drunk, then yes, it would be rape. You do realise that spousal rape is rape, correct?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    All right: if she were too inebriated to offer rational consent, then it would be rape. How's that?
     

Share This Page