Why is it taboo to discuss the responsibility of victims?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wynn, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Thanks again James.

    (Sorry about that, Chimp...

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    Want to take this to the next level?

    Topic:"true" Risk management techniques can be applied to rape mitigation.

    Formal debate. Standard rules. Mutually agreed timing.
    Edit: Naturally, I'm arguing the affirmative...

    Reality of the situation? I make one post, one link - you lose.

    Care to take me up on it?

    (Better learn to read a Gantt chart)
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
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  3. Bells Staff Member

    So you want to debate me about risk management for "rape mitigation"?

    Are you serious?

    There is no such thing.

    I have already linked one site which details why there is no risk management for rape mitigation.. I have dozens of others.

    You are going to link self defense classes? Manner of dress? Saying "be careful"? I have articles to counter each one of those points. You do know what I did for a living for many years, yes? The last time we debated this, in this very thread, you were drunk and abusive and insulting. What makes you think I would want to debate you when you go off your rocker, accuse others of trolling when we provide evidence each time you cannot account for what you say. This subject is too emotional for you.. You can't cope with it. And you think you want to debate me?
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  5. Bells Staff Member

    So you are claiming that rapes occur because not everyone takes care of themselves?

    Exactly. Anyone can be raped, no matter what you do. I have seen women who used to be in the army or in the police force, women who know combat and can defend themselves, be raped by a spouse or partner or stranger and these women could not do anything about it.

    The point Randwolf, which you still seem unable to grasp is who walks around the streets naked? I asked you this before and you didn't answer it. And seeing as I do not live in the US, why do you assume I would walk around naked in Miami? Now as for your previous posts. Do you really want to relive them? Seeing that you appeared to be drunk or stoned out of your mind and you were all over the place. So much so that I had to ask my colleagues if there was something I was missing. And guess what? They couldn't figure out what the hell you were on about either and told me to not speak to you while you were drunk, after my last post to you.

    You did say not to wear things that would attract attention to yourself, such as watches.

    "This does not mean that the mysoginist, schizophrenic, psychopathic rapist dogs from hell are not 100% culpable for their behavior, but let's get real. Don't walk down SoHo beach nude at night, don't peruse the opium dens wearing only your underwear, etc.

    This, hopefully, will reduce your chances of being raped - male, female, hetero, bi, homo, inter, or any other sexual.

    Don't flash you're Rolex while walking in the city. No this doesn't insinuate that women are akin to rolex's. Nonetheless, I will still admonish my daughter for pushing the issue

    If you can't remember what you post when you're drunk, I would strongly suggest you go back and read what you write before you challenge anyone.

    You have been posting while drunk. Abusing me because you kept going back over the same thing that had already been answered and dealt with and demanding to know why I was bringing it up again, when the reality was that you had gone back and requoted everything again, after I had already answered it.. and you had acknowledged it.. Suffice to say, it was hard to understand half of what you were on about.

    Excuse me?

    Go back and read what you have written. Otherwise, leave me the hell enough alone. I have rarely said boo to you before this thread yet you seem to be trying to portray yourself as a victim, even suggested that I was after you or some shit. I don't appreciate it. I had assumed I had made that clear the first time but you can't seem to understand.

    Oh dear lord..

    "This does not mean that the mysoginist, schizophrenic, psychopathic rapist dogs from hell are not 100% culpable for their behavior, but let's get real. Don't walk down SoHo beach nude at night, don't peruse the opium dens wearing only your underwear, etc."​

    The word is highlighted and now I want you to go back and look up what that word means and who it applies to.

    Yes.. And?

    You accused Sam of trolling for bringing it up, I was reminding you.

    Refer to above.

    Oh. This is you explaining it?

    Because what we have been subjected to is your drunken babbling for the last few days.

    And by others you mean Wynn and Cifo who seems to not be sure about criminal law when it applies to rape? Wynn who thinks a 4 year old girl is responsible and complicit for being raped by an adult? Those are the "others"... Some company you keep there.

    So you wanted me to say what? That people should be careful? And? As has been pointed out time and again, you can be as careful as you want and can still be raped.

    And since you can't quite grasp what I have been talking about predominantly in this thread with another poster, before you jammed yourself into the discussion and started lobbing accusations about something you clearly have little understanding (aside from an overly emotional and drunken reaction), I was discussing rape and sexual abuse. Right from the start. Get it now?

    Because Asguard, had you read the thread while sober, you might have begun to understood that the other side had placed the onus on women. Get it now? Do you understand what I was discussing with Wynn?

    So do not attempt to put your standards on a conversation I was having with another poster and then throw a drunken and abusive tantrum when you are asked what you are on about because you are not being taken seriously for being the drunken and abusive poster.

    Do you want to use "SoHo Beach or the Opium den" again?

    Okay.. you're mental. Because what you have just said is that even your own spouse or daughters or anyone else in your family should not trust you because you are male.

    In the greater majority of cases, no it would not. Read the link I gave you. There are hundreds of other links that discuss the same thing. The majority of the time, it would behoove the woman (or man) to not fight back at all as it can result in their being killed. Even if the victim is armed, they are advised to not struggle with a weapon or try to shoot as things happen so fast, that even with training, one could end up being killed.

    In short Randwolf, it is near impossible to try to prepare for something that could end up being your spouse who is the rapist or even your own child in some instances.

    You can try and take as many defense classes as you want. But when it comes down to that crunch, as long as you are very very experienced in how to defend yourself, then yeah, in the greater majority of instances, you're pretty much screwed (no pun intended). Because the fight could result in the rapist killing you and yes, it does happen.

    Oh god..

    No seriously, it is no point discussing this with you. I gave you a link that discusses this very thing and they tell you, unless you are uber sure, do not fight back as it could probably result in your death. The bottom line is that you have to be able to react automatically and without having to think or plan. And even with the classes, where it is all fresh in your mind and it is a controlled environment, sure it is easy. But real life is not that easy. You can have great situational awareness, but that won't protect you when you are asleep, inebriated or caught completely unaware.

    Okay, then let me ask you. What is your strategy to not be raped?

    What is your risk management?

    Then you obviously know better than all the experts on rape.


    Do you know why? Because the rapist is more than likely to be someone the victim knows and trusts.

    I'll give you my example. I have had all the classes, know how to defend myself. The only reason I wasn't raped by someone I knew and trusted enough to allow him to walk out with me in the dark carpark to get my jacket was because he stumbled when he tried to push me into my backseat as I leaned in to get said jacket. He bumped against me when he shouldn't have been there (since he was standing by the boot of the car when I leaned in) and I pushed back and was immediately standing and had turned around to face him, when he then went for the harder push. It happened in a matter of seconds. The only reason he stopped was because I had managed to wriggle my arm between us and jammed him in the nuts with my keys and when he pulled back slightly, I was off and running screaming at the top of my lungs. Does not mean I managed the risk. I just got very lucky.

    But what you are advocating is something very different. Risk management [should really be risk prevention] would involve not going out alone in a dark area (my example above was following that rule...).. Don't leave your drink unattended, avoid being drunk when out, classes to learn how to defend yourself.. But you miss one important thing. We cannot know who the rapist is. The alternative is to live in fear and on constant alert that anyone around us could rape us. I don't know about you, but that is not how I live my life, nor do I want to and nor do other women or men. In fact, I know men become offended when they are simply treated as potential rapists right off the bat. I mean look at your reaction when I used your "be careful" argument about bumping into you on SoHo beach. You were offended. Just as you were offended when I asked you if your wife told your daghter(s) to be wary of you because you could be a potential rapist. And truth be told, I would never meet you anywhere because one can never be sure. Believe me Randwolf, if there was such a thing as preventing rape, then there would be no rapes. And that is the important factor you haven't grasped. Because if there was a way for anyone to ensure or reduce the chances of being raped, then the statistics for rape would plummet. That it isn't should tell you something...

    And as I asked you before, who does these things? What is your personal strategy? Enlighten me oh wise one.

    I don't think you quite read and understood my posts. I'd suggest next time, you do not confuse this post with one from 3 years ago and understand that when you entered it and had a go at me, I was discussing something very particular with another poster. Not to you.

    In short, how can I put this politely enough that you would understand... Stop approaching me like a drunken psycho and I will not treat you like one. Understand?
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
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  7. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    No, you haven't.

    No more fluff - I actually have time vested now. You will get your deliverables and they won't be superficial. I knew someone out there had already performed risk management analysis on this topic - it's quite standard fair. Turns out that there are literally hundreds of studies available. No great surprise. Care to suggest a limit of acceptable authorities? How about something along the lines of NGO's, cities, schools, etc.?

    No, you don't. You don't understand what you are saying.

    Yes, I know what you did for a living. Remember that you're now out of your field - and straying into mine.

    You can get at least a Master's and probably a Doctorate in risk management - it really is quite precise and specific about limitations and such. If it helps any, I personally hold no degree in this field - I learned out of necessity because I had to be able to comprehend what lay beyond the Executive Summaries.

    Remember that the underlying theory is not dependent on the type of project or risk. I'm quite confident about this, Bells.

    So again:

    Topic: Risk management techniques can be applied to rape mitigation.

    Formal debate. Standard rules. Mutually agreed timing. I argue the affirmative.

    Yes or no?
  8. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member


    I just noticed that you replied to my earlier post. I will thank you now, before I look at it.
  9. Bells Staff Member

    Fine. You have the floor to start first.

    Be wary, I have my treatments this week, so it may take me longer to respond. That has priority over you and this topic. But hey, you have the floor. Start her up.

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    You stated earlier one post each? Correct?
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  10. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member


    Just a few points on your "reply" in general.

    So from memory...

    Forget the nudity. Forget the silly little repartee and all the other trash so far.

    You are wrong about which people I was referring to as "others". I know the meaning of every word you are likely to type anytime soon, excluding a few legal terms. Try to keep the name of the poster you are addressing straight when replying.

    I proffered mutual agreement to disagree long ago, in more than one thread. (No, not from three years ago, just to clear that up)

    And yes, I have already heard that you're asking around about me.

    Now, let me check again.

    Yes, the rest is trash - both sides.

    We're down to one thing. Can you apply risk management techniques to rape mitigation?

    I should have looked at this topic a long time ago - if I had known someone else had already done the work, I would have provided you links years back. Risk management is very detailed and can require significant asset investure. I certainly would not take on a project of that scope for free.

    But since the links are there...

    Oh, and thank you again - seriously - for the effort you put into your reply. While I don't appreciate a lot of the personal commentary, I do recognize the effort. No more of those keyboard busters.

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    - if I may...
  11. Bells Staff Member

    Interesting, I did not realise my colleagues were so open with what is being discussed in the back room. Yes, I did ask if I was missing something in what you were saying that could have made the diatribe you were spouting at me somehow make sense. No one was able to give an affirmative answer aside from 'don't talk to him when he's drunk' and another who jokingly commented about just why men seem to not be able to handle this topic well. But thank you for the heads up that no one here can actually be trusted. Silly me. The one poster I did comment on it to, will, I am sure, be happy to learn that you have advised me that you apparently know.

    As for knowing every word I am apparently going to write.. Okay then. If that is the case, why do you demand a debate? You see Randwolf, you seem to be pushing yourself as some sort of victim to me. As though you and I know each other well and have chatted often and debated often. We actually have not.

    So the topic is to be "Can you apply risk management techniques to rape mitigation?"..? Excellent.

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    . No really. Excellent. I await your post in the formal debate sub-forum with great anticipation.

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    As for you in particular. I rarely ever speak to you. In other words, you are not someone I ever really chat to or speak to in that I don't really care either way whether you post or not. As for keeping the name straight.. Are you still confused or are you a sock? When you entered this thread and responded to something I had said to Wynn, you seemed to be under the impression that I was addressing you from a post 3 years ago. A post that I participated in very lightly and where I did participate, I was actually discussing with another poster (ie not you). So if you are still confused on that point, then sure.

    Oh, I believe you got personal first when you thrust yourself into the discussion I was having with Wynn and applied it to yourself and your beliefs on this subject.
  12. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Thank you. Timing noted. I would like to spend a little time myself, narrowing the links down to point...

    Although I mentioned the words "one" and "post" in a row, "one" is not a part of the proposed rules. Time to pay attention to context. Reread my posts or ask for further clarification if you are still confused. Standard rules, I believe that is three, right? I haven't read them in a while, but my intent was to follow whatever specifics are contained therein. I will redigest that material later today.

    Please let me know if this is acceptable...
  13. Bells Staff Member

    We can probably get it done with two.

    I would prefer two simply because a) I don't have much time in the coming weeks due to real life commitments and b) I don't really want to spend more time discussing anything with you than I actually have to. So if we can get it done in 1 or 2, the better it will be because I find you to be too fruity for even me to deal with and frankly, after these last few days, I don't even think this debate is wise because you cannot and do not approach this subject matter with a clear and objective mind.. By your own admittance, this is an emotional subject for you and frankly, after these last few days, I am wondering if it is wise that I allow you to become more emotional.. Albeit, it could be that your over-reaction to what I said to Wynn could simply be because you were by your own admittance drunk..

    Hell, if you want to get it over and done with now in this thread, that's also fine with me. The less time I get to spend talking to you the better.
  14. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    No more assumptions.

    Know the meaning of... If you are not doing this kind of thing disingenuously then that is part of our apparent communication problem. I have been interpreting such maneuvering as intentional and trollish. Let's clear this up, shall we?

    Yes. Read it very carefully - I put a little effort into communicating my meaning succinctly. Remember, no assumptions. The topic is as stated, no more, no less.

    It's not personal anymore.
  15. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

    I look forward to the coming debate.

    The degree of acrimony between some posting at this forum does give me material to ponder.

    Can either of you remain objective or will the subjective steal the day?

    I do not know either of you, so this will, as I mentioned above, prove interesting. :bugeye:
  16. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Allow me to review the existing rules. I will get back to you on the number of posts, but I have no immediate objections to considering a cap of two.

    I suggest you decline. You seem ambivalent - to say the least.
  17. Bells Staff Member

    I have one request from you. Don't post drunk.

    As I said, when you are ready, start the thread in the debate forum.

    Why? Because I find you to be an abusive and drunken and slightly unstable boor?

    You entered this thread and demanded I have an issue with you. So here we are. You reap what you sow.

    Start the debate thread. I can assure you, I am not you and will not blabber about how this is a continuation of a thread from 3 years ago and so forth. In fact, this thread was going very well and I was quite enjoying discussing it with Wynn before you arrived and demanded it be about you and my supposed problem with you and how you seem to believe that I am somehow out to get you and all the rest of the clap trap you went through. So here we are. I always have ambivalence to bullshit. Go figure.

    So start the damn debate thread. We go for the minimum. You post your introduction. I post mine. The main debate post.. you post your one post and I post mine and then we finalise.. so it will go you, myself for the intro.. you, myself for the main body of the thread.. and you, myself for the final post and closing argument.
  18. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    I have no more desire to chit-chat with you specifically than you me. Shall we stop the chatter now?

    On a more relevant topic, I see a small bit of ambiguity left in the wording of the topic. It contains "you". Who is "you"? You as in Bells? You in a more general sense?

    I suggest "Can risk management techniques be applied to rape mitigation?" to avoid dealing with this in the debate. Any problems with that?

    Edit: We crossed replies. Your proposal on the post number and order sounds very promising. As I stated earlier, I must review the posted rules. This is not an attempt to gain time, nor am I vacillating - I am simply not prepared to commit to giving up any advantage that may be available. You are a formidable opponent, as you know.

    I need to go attend to the real world for a while myself. You will have my formal agreement / revision to your suggestion by tonight.

    Don't forget the topic wording addressed above. Is it acceptable?
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member


    That slut!
  20. Bells Staff Member

    I prefered the first one. I understood it was in the general sense.

    Whatever. Pick whichever one you want. If I refuse, you will whine about it anyway and carry on like you had been earlier in this thread. It's off-topic now as it is. State the "you" is in the general sense in the question.

    And if you have no desire to "chit-chat" with me, you a) shouldn't have inserted yourself in my discussion with Wynn and demanded I have a problem with you and b) not suggested we debate and then hash out the basics of this debate. So do whatever you wish to do. "Can risk management techniques be applied to rape mitigation?" is fine..
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  21. Bells Staff Member

    He obviously does not realise that those man boobs can drive others into a sexual frenzy that they will not be able to control and rape him.
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    You are about to embarrass the hell out of yourself, Randwolf, but ... whatever

    Anytime someone says something like, "I make one post, one link - you lose", we know they are not confident in their argument.

    So the question I actually think is more important is whether or not you really want to embarrass yourself that way.

    I recognize you're trying to set yourself up according to criteria by which you think you can't lose, but you will have so sharply accentuated the problem inherent to your "risk management" argument as to essentially reiterate it for Bells.

    You can't win this, Randwolf, unless you structure the debate to leave issues like reasonable measures and human dignity out of the discussion. You know, the same problem rape advocates ran into three years ago when they refused to close up their risk management boundaries.

    Of course, that was the point, to place the responsibility for a man's behavior in a woman's hands.

    The whole argument is a neurotic mess so deeply rooted in masculine identity politics that some will pretend to be kind to women in order to hate them; you know, like telling them how to reduce their chances of being raped.

    Because, well, you know, for men—at least, according to the mitigation argument—it is simply unacceptable and impossible to demand that they treat women like human beings.
  23. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    First, I would like to thank you for your concern, Tiassa. Truly.

    As to the relevant material you address in your post, have no fear. I do not intend to structure an argument that deprives anyone of human dignity nor anything else. I will touch on a few of the most recent sociological paradigms that address sexual crimes. Do you prefer the postmodern or the culturist position Tiassa? Or some other? Oh, and I like boundaries, Tiassa. You brought the word to my attention a while ago, and it threw me. It was a definitional issue, and it took me a long time to understand what you meant, in context. Now I would ask for a definition, but I didn’t know you then, nor did I understand this forum.

    To the other, winning this debate is not my primary goal here. (Although it would be a nice trophy...) I would like to see some real progress on this issue after all these years. There are a lot of intelligent people here, and I believe they can contribute to these issues – you know, kind of like an intelligent community. Maybe some scatter diagrams, I don't know...

    And notice the emotion? Gone. It will remain gone for the duration, no matter how bad this turns out. Posturing aside, thanks. I have fun here.

    Oh, yeah. This…

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