Why I don't believe aliens are visiting us.

I have engaged in this discussion many times, almost always witnessing the same dichotomy in the debators. One group seems to hold that UFO's are alien vehicles; they can show you thousands of photographs, eyewitness reports and web sites to support their claim. The other group seems to look at the UFO phenomenon as an unknown, slanted against the possibility of alien visitation; they can sit down and point to the fishing line in the UFO photo, the physics and the holes generally in the concept.

I am of the latter school of thought, a self labled skeptic and I do not believe that UFO's are alien vehicles. It is not that I don't believe in extraterrestrial life, I do. Given the enormity of the universe, it would not be suprising to me to know that alien life has existed before us, or will live after us. I conceed the possibility that we might co-exist with another life form somewhere in the universe. But so many obstacles lie in our path. Obstacles which are fully provable; derived from the collaborative efforts of every school of science.

The first is the speed of light. Special relativity has extensive mathematics on the subject. To achieve the speed of light, an infinite amount of energy needs to be expended. More energy than there is in the entire universe.

The second is the effort issue. The amount of work put into making a space craft, equipping it with very high powered engines, supplies, fuel, technology and passengers is large. Accelerating it to even near light speeds requires a tremendous amount of energy. Would it not be simpler, more cost efficient and more productive to use high powered radio signals to make contact with us? Yet, we see absolutely no transmissions from anything other than natural cellestial phenomena.

The third reason has to do with evidence. The truth of the matter is that there is nothing that undeniably proves that aliens are visiting us. No tools, gizmos, trash, books, corpses, bacteria, waste, equipment... nothing. Absolutely nothing that would undeniably show that aliens are here. We have had instances of very odd situations, but these don't point in only one direction.

This fact invites further dellusional paranoia in the construction if the MIB myth. "We don't know because THEY are hiding it from us". The scope of such a conspiracy would be so immense that there would be no way to hide it. EVERYONE would need to be involved on some level, and EVERYONE would have to be so totally secretive. With my dealings with people, I have found that a secret rarely stays a secret for very long. The belief that the alien issue is somehow immune to this social truth is laughable.

I heard once that there have been 12 million eyewitness reports of UFO's. If we stretch this out over 1000 years, we have 32 a day. Thirty two sightings every day somewhere in the world. Yet there are NO videos which document UFO's to any conclusive degree. We can't even say for certian that UFO's are vehicles.

There have been many alternate possibilities offered for the UFO phenomenon. Plasmoids (like ball lightning), fire balloons (used deliberately to cause UFO sightings), misidentified aircraft...the list goes on and on and on and on...

The basic facts are that we have hundreds of other possibilities, none of which are seriously considered by people who want to believe in alien visitation.

I'd love it if it were true. Much like the believers, I would welcome the reality with open arms. However, unlike many believers, I need something a little more reliable than someone else's say so.

I invite comment.

-242

 

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I am of the school of thought that says UFOs are precisely that: Unidentified Flying Objects. I try to avoid using UFO as a synonym for extraterrestrial craft. In your post, I spotted something that I always run into and always contend...

While I agreed with the paragraph immediately following, these two need to address a couple of questions:
1) Are the laws of physics really universal, or might they apply only to this tiny corner of the universe?
2) Are we to assume that they, if they exist, use the same (or similar) technology types as we do, or might they have unraveled the mysteries of quantum physics?

I am eager to hear your response, as almost everyone else I have asked this of answers me in stony silence.

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited March 18, 2000).]

 

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Oxygen, I welcome the opportunity to give my views on your two questions. Let me try to answer them clearly, and let me know your thoughts.

1) Are the laws of physics really universal, or might they apply only to this tiny corner of the universe?

From my understanding, they are, however, this is a very difficult concept to prove. In order for us to do this, we would need to test every aspect of our scientific knowledge in every part of the universe, under every circumstance. I believe that the laws we witness are universally constant, but I am open to change this opinion should some experimental data lead to another conclusion. However, we have not witnessed anything that would hint at this.

I would be open to hear some evidence, but I think the question is more evasive in nature than probing. It seeks to undermine science to rationalize possibilities, not to explain existing phenomena with confirmed information. There is no reason to assume that our understanding of the universe is transient, and no indication that it has or will change. As I said, I would listen to data on the subject, but I just don't see anything indicitave that the laws of physics change with location...

2) Are we to assume that they, if they exist, use the same (or similar) technology types as we do, or might they have unraveled the mysteries of quantum physics?

Good question. I would assume that an alien species would develop in a different fashion, as they undoubtedly will have a different history and religious structure (at one point in our history, it was strictly forbidden to preform an autopsy on a human... this affected our development).

I could imagine a society based on mastery over magnetics, or a religion based on highly advanced electronics design. Without data, we are only left guessing, but I would say with certianty that alien life would have taken a different path than we have.

This, at first glance, seems to say that the aliens could have focused on technology that would enable interstellar travel. It is a possibility. However, there have been extensive attempts by our species towards this direction, none of which have revealed any shortcuts between the stars.

The knowledge from the human scientific community is really all we have to go on. While I agree that other possibilities exist, they are so tangled with uncertianty and speculation and so contradicted by our very real and verified scientific data that I find it difficult to negotiate with them. I will say 'maybe' but I don't think that maybes have any real weight. Speculation for direction is acceptable in science, but maybes aren't an argument.

I don't mean to leapfrog into the predictable arguments, but I'd rather do it now, in a linear manner than wait and complicate the debate.

What are your thoughts?

-242

 

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242,
I fully accept your argument on all counts. What we know now tells us that WE are incapable of interstellar travel....or to rephrase that interstellar travel is not feasable. Ok thats great but you are basing arguments on science that is very young in the scheme of things. You see its very probable that the life expectancy of ET is much MUCH longer then our own...that kind of life form would develop technology much better then we do, further our technological civilistaion is younger then the number of years it would take to travel to our nearest neighbouring star (using current technology) so you see all though all your points are valid they are ALL subject to change, technology changes, physics develops and evolves.....I know that everything I have said is speculative, BUT it is FEASABLE, definetly not outside the realm of possibilty.

On to Radio waves: why would ET use EM waves to comunicate, I suppose they shoud modulate their signals to AM or FM so our RF recievers can tune in and listen to the English speaking ET on the other end saying "HELLO IS THEIR ANYONE THEIR?"...we listen to radio, and look at light....EM waves, sure they're abundant in the universe true...but so is Nuclear force, Gravity and we are still looking for gravity waves. This is one part of physics that we know very little about...it also is the most likley key to interstellar travel.

Also there is more then one way to skin a cat, or if you like get from a to b, it doesn't need to be done by speeds higher then c, or even in a straight line, its possible mathematicaly to manipulate space via wormholes......so its possible just not right now. We haven't even begun to understand our own solar system, we are very young and through our own short history we have managed to achieve all sorts of IMPOSSIBLE tasks, we will continue to do just that its in our nature.

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work to LIVE...don't live to WORK.

 

242 - Have you seen the Mexico City video footage? I believe it was sometime in 1991 prior to a daytime solar eclipse. Six different camera men videoed the same UFO from distinctly different vantage points and there were about 35 UFO's flying in the air, all at the same time. Detailed computer analysis has shown these UFO's to be real metallic objects flying in the sky, emitting some type of discharge or field of gravity type propulsion from the bottom, and they were all spinning in circles. After seeing this footage there is no doubt in my mind whatsover, that we are either being visited by aliens from another planet, or creatures from another dimension on Earth (Strings Theory supports 5 dimensions) or Earthlings time traveling from the future. The reason I have come to that conclusion is the Mexico Footage to me, shows obviously real craft that is doing something no current man made vehicle could possibly do. Now, I have heard some people say, that these are just new military air vehicles that were built here on Earth and are just being test flown. If that is true, why would our Government be test flying our most top-secret air craft over Mexico City in the broad daylight, during a daytime eclipse that brought thousands of people out into the street to look up at the sky. Seems like a perfect time to test your most top-secret craft, doesn't it. Yeah, lets test our top secret craft above a foreign country's most populated city in broad daylight with thousands of people looking skyward with camera in hand. Real Smart. Could the video be faked? Sure. The only problem with that is like 6 different people videoed the same group of UFO's at the same time from six different vantage points. The videos were analyzed, and were determined to be real objects flying in the sky. Plus these people were local mexicans, and not exactly computer programers and special effects artists with access to SGI workstations and ILM equipment. Bottom line, for me is that when I saw this footage, and have seen it several of times, It makes me wonder just how this story and video never made it to the cover of Time Magazine and Newsweek and every newspaper in the world, as obvious evidence of E.T. Visitation. It boggles my mind even now. The second best evidence I have seen is the now famous Phoenix Lights. So exactly what is your explanation for the two football field size mothership hovering over Phoenix, and being seen by hundreds of residents and video taped and photographed by many. I guess, again this was simply a top secret military vehicle, made on Earth by humans, that for some strange reason makes no sound whatsoever, and is the size of two football fields accros, and is hovering over the downtown of a very large U.S. Metropolitan area? Again, a real smart place to test fly something made in the U.S.A.!

 

Rambler, I totally agree. Our civilization is still very young, and our grasp of the realities of the universe is loose. I would not presume to say that our current understanding of science is infallable, nor would I ever claim that it is not subject to radical change.

My point is that this is the best we've got so far. In the entire history of the human species, since we first learned that we could use a stick to get ants out of their nests, we have accumulated knowledge about the universe. We have gotten progressively more sophisticated by relying on those previous discoveries. Now, let us remain open to change, by all means, but the measure of our theories is typically guaged by everything we know to be true about the universe (i.e. we don't jump off of cliffs because science could be wrong about gravity).

As far as the radio emissions, I certianly don't think that they would speak to us in English. Perhaps Carl Seagan had it right when, in Contact, the aliens used pulses in prime number sets... who knows? But, even if they talked in their native tongue, and we ddn't understand a word (would there even be words?)of it, that at least answers the big question with minimal energy expendature (something a hyper-intelligent race would consider).

Commander X, I have an observation to make... please permit me.

"...Detailed computer analysis has shown these UFO's to be real metallic objects flying in the sky...After seeing this footage there is no doubt in my mind whatsover, that we are either being visited by aliens from another planet, or creatures from another dimension on Earth (Strings Theory supports 5 dimensions) or Earthlings time traveling from the future..."

There should be a doubt in your mind. Did you see any of the following?

a)aliens from another planet
b)creatures from another dimension
c)Earthlings time traveling from the future

No, there is nothing in your statement about seeing anything biological. You are inferring quite a bit about what you saw. They "could" be piloted by aliens, they "could" be demons, or faries, or ghosts, or psychic entities, the larvae stage of chupacabra... We don't know. By all means, believe what you want to, and infer whatever you want. Just realize that you didn't see aliens; EVEN IF YOU ARE 100% CORRECT, you saw ALIEN CRAFT. But we aren't even sure of that. Let's try to stick with things we can verify... inferrances only deviate our probing.

-242

 

There has been to many credible people over the years who have seen beings get out of craft that defy explaination. Many military people on their death beds talk of the aliens as extraterrestrials. Lets look at what we do know:
1 The media does not cover stories on major UFO events.
2 The subject is top secret
3 Many credible professional people talk of being taken to craft by aliens.
4 Major Military bases are played with by these craft such as arming and disarming nuclear weapons this is well documented and available to anyone.
5 The material and technology displayed by the craft are beyond what we have on earth.Whether they are from another planet or dimension they are extraterrestrial.

 

242,
On the Radio waves stuff:
Sorry about the sarcasm in the above post. What I was trying to get across was that SETI listens to EM radiation, actualy to be entirley correct they listen for narrow band signals. One person (on the whole planet) is looking for inteligent light signals. These are both EM radiation signals. We have an excellent understanding of EM forces and infact manipulate the radiation to produce a means of long distance comms. However we know very little about Nuclear forces, and even less about gravity. So this highly evolved civilisation may very well be broadcasting inteligent signals except we aren't looking for the right signals yet. EMF, Nuclear, and gravity forces are the 3 fundamental forces that build our universe, just because we use EM radiation to comunicate does not mean ET does. Someone will probably say that EM radiation is the most efficient form of long distance coms, gravity suffers from amplitude decrease over long distances, nuclear is a force limited to extremely small distances....but as I have said before and you have agreed with these are things we know very little about, and gravity is probably the key to efficient interstellar distance reduction (beit propulsion, space manipulation, coms etc)

So if we take out all speculation from the UFO / ET phenomonon then yes it would not be possible/feasable to span long interstellar distances, but I say science rely's on speculation to advance its ideas, the points I make for ET having the capablity to send inteligent signals, or travel to our planet are all within the realm of possibilty, somewhere between science and science fiction (bias toward science end of spectrum).

I also have pics of OLD (a few hundred years I think) piantings (I'm not an art guru infactg I know bugger all about art), but these paintings all have a pic of a disk shaped UFO hovering above the scene. Many many ancient civilisations have myths where vessels come from the sky shooting fire from their bellies, briliantly lit etc, many civilisations began the VERY perculiar practice of skull binding (all these civies started it at about the same time), skull binding is linked to a god that came from a vessel from the sky. There are tribes in south america, africa that have an intemit knowledge of astronomy...they're aware of heavenly bodies that are not visible to the naked eye. They know the earth is round (somewhat), they know its part of a solar system. This is just some psudo-evidence that would suggest ET has infact been here many times and all over the planet. I have looked into ancient civies (just for my own amusement and knowledge) and there is just too much that remains unanswered or poorly answered at best, I think that if you look beyond physics you will find more convincing proof of ET visiting our world.



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work to LIVE...don't live to WORK.

[This message has been edited by Rambler (edited March 20, 2000).]

 

I think a lot of people have tried to
fit UFO's into our "conventional box"
and it just won't work. From past to present we have ignored a lot of aspects
of this phenomenon because we couldn't understand it. You can have all the best evidence in the world but if people refuse to look at it it's worthless. I
say the evidence is there, it's just very few people are willing to look at it.
Lets face it, there hasn't been a very good effort at all by our scientific community to investigate it only to hide or ignore it.Maybe they are afraid of what they will find.

 

Well someone, or some organisation, whoever, whatever it doesn't matter has seen to it that the second you start raving on about little green men your credability starts to dive bomb and if you keep it up it WILL crash and burn. Then no funding, no research no career.....Science doesn't want to know about it until the evidence is undisputed.

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work to LIVE...don't live to WORK.

 

Rambler - About the Mexico City Craft - You said that I didn't actually see Alien Beings, Beings from another dimension on Earth or time traveling Humans. No, you're right, it is kind of hard to see through rotating metal. Of course, I'm sure that you have looked at a 747 on video tape and were sure that there was a human pilot flying the plane with many civilian passengers on board. Of course it could be an unmaned probe, but the bottom line is that the craft that is on that video tape was not made anywhere on Earth by earthlings before like 3000 AD which is another 1000 years in the future, so obviously it could be time traveling humans from the future, but it could also be aliens from another solar system or beings from another dimension on Earth. The bottom line, is that it is distinct proof that somebody other than current day humans are either flying it or controlling it remotely somehow, and that is about all I really need to know. The third best evidence is the fact that the United States Air Force announced to the news wires in 1947 that they had recoverd an alien space vehicle with dead bodies. Sure, the next day they changed their story and said it was a mistake, and then changed it six more times after that, but it doesn't change the fact that originally like 15 different Military Personell believed that they had recoverd an alien space vehicle and alien bodies. Either it's true, or we had one of the most incompetent military personell in the history of the military at that base on that day.

 

Comander,
I didn't say that.

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I argued for ET visits. However I have a pic of a black project aircraft (I like aircraft I studied this stuff for many years at UNI, well I liked them a whole lot more before the study

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) any way as I was saying: this particular aircraft is reported to use a magnetic drive of some kind that interfers with gravity and in affect reduces its weight by 85%, it also look identicle to a typical UFO dome, triangle shape all the makings. You'd be surprised what technology the military have. Current tech, the stuff you and I see is about 3 - 5 generations behind the cutting edge (classified or otherwise) technology. Its a real possibilty, I can think of a motive to display these craft in that fasion, but as I said before I'm inclinded to think that there's more to the story then science can explain, particluarly if you look beyond physical sciences.

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work to LIVE...don't live to WORK.

 

Rambler,
I agree but science is about studying
the unknown to get answers to questions.
There are some scientist who are coming out of the closet and hopefully more will in the future. I have no doubt in my mind that they are hiding more than our current achievements. These strange craft have been sighted for centuries by many so the arguement that they are ours is not valid unless they are our own from the future of course.
Commander X,
The personel at that base at the time were the best in the world so I have to say that they did recover a flying saucer.


[This message has been edited by Alien (edited March 21, 2000).]

 

242

You say "The scope of such a conspiracy would be so immense that there would be no way to hide it."

Big secrets have and are being successfully kept from the public at large by intelligence communities. If only a very small number of people know the whole truth then secrets can be kept.

 

Commander X,
"You said that I didn't actually see Alien Beings, Beings from another dimension on Earth or time traveling Humans. No, you're right, it is kind of hard to see through rotating metal."

Alright that's step one. You did NOT actually SEE aliens, time traveling humans or creatures from another dimension.

"Of course, I'm sure that you have looked at a 747 on video tape and were sure that there was a human pilot flying the plane with many civilian passengers on board."

Yes, but that was an inference. Would you bet your life on my perception? Would you convict a man for my testimony? Of course not. In fact, you later say:

"Of course it could be an unmaned probe..."

So you aren't even sure that there was something in it.

"...but the bottom line is that the craft that is on that video tape was not made anywhere on Earth by earthlings before like 3000 AD..."

Really? You base this on what? So, either an alien race, dimensional creatures or humans in the year 3000 AD, right? So all three of these creatures make similar craft? Seeing as though you have not been around in 3000 AD, nor have you visited alien worlds or other dimensions, I don't see how you can qualify that statement.

"...so obviously it could be time traveling humans from the future, but it could also be aliens from another solar system or beings from another dimension on Earth."

Well, the list of what it could be goes on and on and on and on and on... seeing how little evidence we have, I don't see how one has weight over the other.

"The bottom line, is that it is distinct proof that somebody other than current day humans are either flying it or controlling it remotely somehow, and that is about all I really need to know."

Well, I disagree.

-242

 

Spadge, I agree. Big secrets have been kept pretty tightly from a lot of people. The location of the valley of the kings, for example. I still can't get past that one. I mean, that is a big secret to keep.

But, we have got to look at this and ask ourselves "Could I keep this secret?".

Could you resist the urge? Could your Siblings? Could your friends keep the secret? Could you keep it from your husband, or your wife? How about from your kids?

Any 'yes' to any of the questions above would constitute a leak. Now, let's apply this to everyone involved in this conspiracy... someone somewhere would've talked already. Given human nature (and having played 'Telephone' in kintergarten), I don't think it is possible to keep such a thing secret while so many people know about it.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

-242

 

242,
There have been leaks in the past. If
you were faceing large fines,imprisonment
and/or death I think you could keep a secret don't you? There are many secrets
kept by our government many of those not involving UFO's or aliens.There is so much going around about this subject that when something genuine is leaked out who's going to take it seriously?

 

242- Like the secret has been kept? There have been more leaks than anything I can possibly imagine. The only problem is, for every real legitimate leak, there are 40 bogus leaks that make the true leaks look phony. There have been plenty of people who have supposedly worked at Area 51 come forward, even the head of Project Blue Book, admitted they were keeping the Alien situation secrect from the public, and that their MO was to try to use any possible explanation to rule out Alien Contact. Look at the Alien Autopsy, and interview with an Alien and all the Astronauts that have come forward. And look at all the military personell that have come forward, and even President Reagan, after his presidency has made two different inklings towards an alien threat. The bottom line, is that this secret hasn't been kept good at all. It just that there is so much bogus mis-information and I had sex with an alien in a trailor park on Sally Jesse Raphael stuff, that the true credible earth shattering leaks, are glossed over as nothing.

 

Commander,

Please tell me that you don't actualy attach any credability to the autopsy film. That was a fake beyond any doubt. Perhaps its also a cover up, and film had been switched who knows, but the one being circulated is a dud, no question. I think that thses days evidence is going to have to be undisputed, i.e. if a saucer crashes into a heavily populated area (in a lake I hope it doesn't fall on people), but until something like that happens the job of discrediting evidence is 90% done as soon as the word UFO is mentioned.

 

I'm not implying that either video was real, I'm just implying that there have been plenty of leaks. When this story really comes out, I think we will realize that alot of the rumors that came out, that sounded so fantastical and unbelievable and ridiculous will actually be proven true.