WHy God Sucks

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Shady_Reaper, Jun 21, 2001.

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  1. Shady_Reaper Registered Member

    You already have seen my beliefsa that thewre is no god and if there is he sux. I posted it in the Christianity one because I thought it would generate some interecting responses.
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  3. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

    Just to clarify what I wrote in that last post to everyone in the forum, I found what thecurly1 said rather serious. The screw you! in the subject header, and your so stupid comments as well as I hate anyone comments were rather serious. For any Christian who hates someone or says screw you to a non believer, I think that they should examine themselves as Christians. I would.

    2 Corinthians ch 13 vs 5

    Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

    Believing in Christ does not give us a right or an attitude to go about hating other people, nor is this taught in the Gospels. So I don't think it was arrogant of me to point out the two most important commandments of Love. thecurly and Lawdog, I am merely asking you to examine yourselves. Do you really love your neighbour? These people at the forums, I regard as neighbours, I would not wish to kill or hate them, I wish them and you all the best. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour or even believe in a God, I still do not find that a good enough reason to hate you or fight you. But as long as there is a Christianity forum at exosci I will hopefully continue to be able to post here so that you can all here my views.

    The Shady Though, you may take the view that God does not exist and is mean and hateful. I consider the fact that after making fun of Him and you still being alive evidence of His love for you.

    It generated some interesting spelling too.

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    Lyndale No denomination of Christianity is supierior to the other. Put behind you this notion. I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sister just as well as my prostestant, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostal brothers and sisters etc. I attend Roman Catholic chuch as well as Anglican (Chruch of England, Protestant) though the two forms of worship are different none are superior to the other. Do not hate your brother or sisters.


    As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people.

    May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? Also, I doubt that Loone hates others for their beliefs as well.

    The reason I ask is because I make a valid point not to be like those other Christians who make out life is so tough. Not even St Paul in all of his hardships did he do this. Instead he did the exact opposite and rejoiced!

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  5. Lyndale Registered Member

    There is "ONLY ONE WAY", "ONE PATH",...THAT LEADS TO GOD. "ONE". NOT 2 OR MORE. That path is by the Son of God, Jesus. Only by every example that He gave, Only by every breath, that He breathed, Only by the love He taught,...will a man find the Lord, God.
    Any side stepping to the aforementioned will lead to hell. If this is what you do or your religion, then you have been decieved and you are on the path to hell.
    I hate the deception not the person.
    Christian, means "Christ like". Any variance,...is against God.
    Mary, budah, ...nor any other man will lead you to God.
    Jesus said... I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, NO man commeth to the Father but by ME.
    Do you not understand this. Or ...do you think Jesus made a mistake and forgot something....?

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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member


    Well, there's your 6/24/2001 contribution to this very topic:
    It seems to me that we went through this very issue in another thread.

    * http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2870 is a starter.

    We seem to have discussed, quite clearly, in To God be the Glory! the diffiuclties I have with your particular expressions. I see a post requesting more detail over there, so you'll find some more specific thoughts on that thread there.
    Such as here, where you basically declared that people are unfit for God's purposes as God made them. The implication being common to the notion of conversion, the purpose of evangelism and missionary work. Quite simply, the Christian declaration is that people--as God made them--are unfit. This undermines the entirety of salvation by making it a dog-and-pony show for God's amusement. To further this cruelty in the living world is persecutory.
    To bring you suffering? That's not persecutory?
    You feel illl-represented by my words? Propagandized? Yet I'm only drawing conclusions, according to my usual method, from your own words.

    And there's an even greater issue to address here: Like I noted to Lyndale: As I have advised Loone and Deadwood .... Lyndale is like many Christians who complain of persecution; that statement officially adds him to the list of people I've told that. His contradictions of persecution are more naked and apparent than yours.

    And yes, Deadwood, I do see what's taking place. You'll find that I shall generally try to keep my nose out of that part of what you're posting; and while I'm aware that demonstration for my purposes is not the primary focus, I want you to know that I, at least, note and appreciate it. You will find enough flak on that side of the argument that I don't have a particular desire to pile it on, and nor will I be inclined to involve myself unless a specific issue compels me. But I would be the satan, then, to interfere in that half of the process without some obvious reason. But it would seem that we're seeing at least a couple of credibility issues in common, and that's a precious chance to throw a rope across the abyss, regardless of who's going to do the tightrope.
    I'd take issue on specific detal regarding Paul, but I catch your drift so strongly here that I'm inclined to set that difference of interpretation aside.

    So I wanted to offer these two basic notions:

    * Persecution comes in the need to convert. It is inherent: the message is that one is unfit by the nature of their birth to satisfy the God who required that birth. It seems paradoxical, and overlooks the issues of the Christian house, whereby people become unfit by adopting and then abusing the word of God. In the meantime, the situation is changing enough at Sciforums that I'm inclined to simply watch that part of it for the time being. It does seem that, even if we're not coming together on certain points herein, we are at least seeing the same issues.

    * My objection to Christians feeling persecuted is a broader one, and actually transcends the little snippets of your posts I've included here. Look at your fellow Christians at Sciforums, as I know you have been. And look out at your fellow Christians in your community. Perhaps the American roadshow comedy of stump evangelism is as hilarious and scary to Christians internationally as it is to domestic infidels. Here, though, it's frightening. Creation/Evolution, abortion, prayer in school--the common American experience is that almost everything one chooses to do will find some objection from Christianity. Scientific research has enough moral questions to answer about methodology without complicating the mix with the imposition of a single theology. That scientists don't bow to Christian ethical demands is publicly expressed here as persecutory. That the public won't eliminate the practice of abortion, and the focus of the pro-Choice movement on Christian objections is called persecutory. To not ban a book from a library because a Christian demands it is viewed as persecutory by many of the faith. I need more than my two hands to count the number of Christian-derived moral ballot measures put before Oregon in the 1990's, and that was merely by the time I left in '96. Yet Christians express a sense of persecution because the society will not declare homosexuality illegal. Or their silly pornography measures: two concurrent measures on the '96 ballot both attempted the same goal: to codify the US Supreme Court ruling on pornography, with much focus on child pornography. Two things were wrong with these measures: 1) They accomplished nothing but a restatement of the legal standard; 2) They split the ticket and both failed; the combined numbers from each--assuming disparate approval via the split ticket--would have passed one. (This last assumption, that the numbers would have passed a single ballot measure does not account for the possibility that it was the same 35% of the voting population that voted for both.) Yet after this failure, Christians in Oregon expressed a sense of persecution: that hatred for Christians compelled people to build a sinful society merely to spite Christians.

    Okay, they're not the most basic notions in the world: They do, hopefully, explain the nature of the statement to Lyndale which you have questioned.

    But there are new field conditions to observe: I would be morally remiss if I chose not to find out what happens next. Good luck in that, sir.


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  8. Deadwood Registered Senior Member


    No problem there.

    No problem here either.

    Lyndale, I do not woship or pray to St Mary. She is blessed among women, but I only worship God. Lyndale, when was the last time you attended a church other than the one you go to? Was this church of a different denomination?

    Am I deceived then to love all of my brothers and sisters? Am I deceived to love all peoples?

    You see, all denominations are in agreeance on the black and white stuff. Its just the grey areas which divide. We all believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That God is a triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

    To give an example the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox chuch are only seperated by three words. Only three words seperate them and yet there is hate between some of them, and excommunication between the two churches during some periods of time. I am protestant. I don't attend Mass at the Roman Catholic church but I do go and worship and pray with them.

    In the words of one of my ministers. If you can't even bring yourself to go to another church, then you've got to examine yourself. At my church we are encouraged to attend other churches. Something you may not find in the US from what I've heard there is a lot of fighting between priests, ministers etc about other churches taking other peoples congregations. At least its not like that over here as far as I know.


    That was actually Lyndales thread, not mine.

    It is actually because of Mankinds fall into sin, originally Mankind was created perfect, until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. However, God in all His grace provided us a way out. We need a sacrifice for our sins, just as the Old Testament tells us (Leviticus and Deutoronomy is a good source to read if you wish to look into this). This is why God sent his Son to save us. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, and a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This is why we say that there is only one path, because He is the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins.

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    Not totally sure what you meant, but suffering is part of the Christian life. This is why I don't complain.

    This is where it is hard for me to understand. Australia is a lot more easy going. I did do bible study in high school on a lunch time once a week, and you are allowed to pray at school. Muslims would pray on Friday, Christians could pray on wednesday and Friday morning which I didn't attend.

    I think that scientists can research what they like. In fact, I'm thinking of donating my body to science when I die. I don't like abortion however, and I think if someone wants Euthanasia that is their choice and their entitled to it. Free will. I think that if the library wants to include Harry Potter into its bookshelf it can. I don't like the fact that people in the US can't pray in schools. Thats a bit silly. But I just want to make clear that I don't see it as persecution, this is why I don't want to be seen in this light and branded as one of those Christians that go around looking for persecution and when they can't find it, they go and blame some book in the library.

    If I attended a school that wouldn't let you pray, I just wouldn't. As a Christian I am not above civil laws. However, there are certain exceptions, like proclaiming Christ. If their was a law saying you couldn't be Christian, I would not be abliged to follow that law.

    If you want to be homosexual, that is your choice. I once had a friend who was homosexual. If you want to view pornography, it is your choice again. I'm not neccessarily going to make it illegal, however, just as environmentalist groups can educate people about the effects of pollution, why can't I tell people that doing these things is wrong? However, I won't go around condemning, thats not what I'm here(in a general sense) for.

  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member



    Whoops. My bad. Sorry.
    Bottom line: people who do not have the faith must change so that they do have the faith. God apparently charges interest on the "blessing" of life, for they are unworthy of him in the form that he has made them. I am, actually, familiar with Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It works fine when you're lost in the desert, but has less relevance in modern "civilization."
    In the context of your question: May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs?
    Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous here. The thing is that we have a history in this country of having forced children to pray. It took a Supreme Court decision to stop this. Ever since, Christians have blamed everything negative in American society on the removal of prayer from public school.
    I do wish someone would tell the Christians in this country that very idea. Cancer-fighting drugs were banned in this country for several years because they could be mixed with another drug to cause a miscarriage. Science in this country often has to deal with Christian-centered objections.
    Nobody likes abortion. The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to change the economic patterns that create its need. In this country, however, the Christian prescription is abstinance. Objections to sex ed, condom distribution programs, birth control information, and abortion. Somehow American Christians have this idea that if you tell kids not to have orgasms, they won't. Of euthanasia--in Oregon, Christians assert that you are a victim if you're granted your right to die. I don't get it myself, but then again, a lifetime of that very sentiment keeps me well-distanced from Christianity.
    That's well and fine and the message is received. Understand, though, that in the US, to disagree with a Christian is apparently to persecute them.
    As long as we're clear: you're allowed to pray, you're just not allowed to make it an official school function--prayer clubs, Bible clubs, pre-game public prayers, &c.
    And to be exceptionally clear on this: In the United States, Christians are the loudest advocates of censorship. Into the 1970's, you could get arrested in this country for practicing certain religions: Zsusanna Budapest was prosecuted in California for being a witch. Decency laws in this country generally conform to Christian standards if they conform to any religious standard at all, and most of them do.
    Well enough. The point actually was that Christians felt persecuted for blowing their own politics out their ass. It was just a further example of what we've come to expect of Christianity in this country.


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  10. Lyndale Registered Member

    Word twisters

    If your going to respond to what I have said, then at least do it with truth. I did not complain about anything. I stated fact, only.
    It is no wonder why there isnt more participation. You twist and manipulate everyones words. You dance around the truth and manipulate it with your twisted lies.

    Keep up the "bad" work tiassa...you make your master proud.

    and...to the other blind one....Your religion is an occult. Mary is not the path to the Father. Take your whole religion and compare it to this....Out of all you do inside your buildings of evil...e.i. count beads, worship mary, worship statues, call a "man" father...and the rest of the evil you do......did Jesus do any of these?....You know the answer is NO.................then why in the world do you do it. Don't you see the deception that as blinded millions? I put the question to you again...."If Jesus didnt do it, then why do you do it, did He forget something when he was on earth...did He make a mistake"....

    I dare you to answer that last couple of questions.


    "Words twisted, come out of the mouth of Liars".
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member



    Oh, well ... in that case, I should ignore your lament, which I accidentally attributed to Deadwood?
    I would assert here that your anger is misplaced: people don't adopt a random urge to counter Christianity; that urge arises from the need to get its tyranny off one's back. What religion do atheists "hate" the most? You might as well ask What religion meddles with atheism the most? I'm quite sure the atheists would leave Christianity alone if the religion would lighten up on everyone. Someone asked here recently about the focus on Christianity: atheists are just as snappy toward Islamic or Jewish or Wiccan pressures, except that these pressures just don't come up as often. The determination of the Christian population to either actively work against other people in the world, or to sit idly by and permit this denunciation of people, or to support those denunciations at a ballot box is disheartening at least, sickening at par. So if you think atheists "hate" Chrisitans the most, have you ever wondered why?
    So you're blaming Sciforums' growth on me? Maybe I should ask Dave for a job.
    No, not everyone's. Very few people's, in fact. If you can't see the ramifications of the things you say, perhaps you'd better give more thought to your words. Just because it sounds like a neato thing to say doesn't mean it works; little manipulation, if any, is needed: you posit such irresponsible theology that all I need do is point out the potential results. Since anything short of an outright faith declaration shines less brightly than you would like, perhaps you should polish the actual logical rhetoric instead of flinging out burning gobs of theological crap that disappear to smoke before they reach the target.
    Everyone's a critic. Hey, if you think you understand my choreography, demonstrate it.
    Ooh. Is that supposed to hurt? More directly, is that supposed to mean anything?

    Lyndale, I can honestly say, based on observation of the immediate moment and the state of your posts, that you have no idea what's taking place around you. Of course I expect you to disagree with me; your faith obliges you to think me inferior. But you should know that you're proving one of my longer-standing points right now, and not necessarily by what you're saying to me directly. Think carefully, look closely. If Jesus weeps, it's because he's tired of bleeding for such senselessness as you preach.


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  12. Lyndale Registered Member


    even in your own reply ....you state the obviouse...twisting of words.....
    first you say you do and in the next breath you say you dont...
    Can you even tell...when your comming and going?


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  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Poor Lyndale

    As I said, demonstrate the method.


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  14. Lyndale Registered Member

    Re: Poor Lyndale

    All anyone has to do is read above...it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out...nor does it take an essay of hot hair...either...understand?

  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    So Alberto V05 won't do it?

    So hair jokes aside ... are you assuming that all people share your contextual interpretation? This is something that I accuse among the negative effects of a priori religious faith. The reason I say to demonstrate the method is so that you're absolutely clear on what you're complaining about, and not sitting smugly in the false assumptiion that we all know what you're talking about.

    Get it?


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  16. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

    Emerald, Tiassa HELP!!! I think I'm next on her hit list on who to call satan!!!

    A protestant, who would of thought?

    Did I say that ST Mary is? No!!!

    Hmmm, I don't count beads (whatever that means?), I don't worship St Mary, afterall, I did tell Lyndale I only worship my Lord and Saviour (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), I wouldn't even bow down to a statue, call a "man" father, so what am I supposed to call my dad, by his first name? Even St Paul saw Timothy as his son

    Here are the references just for you.

    1 Corinthians ch 4 vs 17

    For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

    Phillipians ch 2 vs 22

    But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel.

    1 Timothy ch 1 vs 2

    To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

    1 Timothy ch 1 vs 18 (two references in the same chapter

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    Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,

    2 Timothy ch 1 vs 1-3.

    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,
    To Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
    I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.

    I would also like to note that Paul refers to those who served God before him as his fore fathers.

    Actually, I'm sure Jesus would have called his Earthly father Joseph abba(dad)or a more formal father. but I see that you are getting at people calling a Priest Father Joe or Father Pete. I doh't think there's anything wrong with this. They are like a spiritual father as Paul was to Timothy.

    WHO IS TO SAY I DO???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Roman Catholics may do stuff like this, but I do not include myself.

    God loves Roman Catholics just as well as Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostals etc

    I will give an example. I don't know exactly when this happened, probably 3-7 years ago. Not too sure. But a very spiritual woman from our church (anglican, church of england, Protestant etc) went to Yugoslavia. I'm not sure but I think God would have told her to go, my mum didn't tell me all of the background. However, when she was in Yugoslavia, she was present at one of the visions of St Mary. My mum (not the woman by the way) told me that she said that all of the little children as soon as they saw her ran straight over to her. the vision of St Mary then said ( I can't say the context but this is what my mum told me) that it would be brother against brother ( this is in Yugoslavia). This prophecy has come to pass fulfilled though I'm not sure if it has been fully fulfilled as their is still things going on in Yugoslavia. But this vision involved more than one person, including children running over. The woman said that it was just beautiful, when she appeared seeing all of the children running over.

    Now, she came back to Australia, and some time later was told to go and join a Roman catholic church. Any Roman catholic church. and she has been obedient. even when I asked her ( I didn't know at the time that she was the woman) which church she went to, she was kind of hush hush, but she knew that I was involved with the Roman Catholic church.

    You see Lyndale to judge people is not a good thing. you call me blind, you call me deceived. Yet I do not do the things which you have said. Except I don't mind calling a Priest, minister, pastor etc father, it is a sign of respect. Even people in old testament times when they met an angel called the angel lord. See Genesis. It is a sign of respect. I ask you to learn some respect, stop judging people by what little you know of them. all I did was say I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, and say I worship with them, and suddenly I am deceived.

    If people want to worship Mary it is up to them, they are old enough to count themselves responsible for their own actions. I certainly do not hate them for it.

    I think I asked the last questions by what I said above!

    Now I didn't want to do this, but it looks like I'm going to have to, so that you can judge for yourself who you are.

    Now let me ask you a couple of questions.

    Why do you assume these things about me? Why do you call me blind? Why do you call the people on this board Satan?

    By who's authority do you say such things and make such accusations?

    You call people tares, yet you care none for them, that they may be saved. I think you just want to be right.

    Preach for the former love. Being christian does not give you a right to call people satan, nor judge Christians who are just trying to do what is right. Explain what is right, and do not be so quick to judge. Who are you to think you are the Lord? If He wants to say I am deceived He will tell me, or find someone else to. However, I do not think from my message of unification and love that I would find rebuke. Always, a prophecy will be given in an encouraging manner. I am not stubborn to edify myself by an means. It is one thing to read the bible. It is another to understand. And by far, it is another thing to apply it to your life. As I am trying and striving to apply it to mine. Just as it is one thing to go around calling people tares, or influenced by satan. However, would you bring any consideration to actually thinking they are just trying to do their best and please God. Just because people do not follow everything that you believe does not give you an excuse to start abusing them. What makes you so special? I love the whole body of Christ, do not condemn me for this and especially do not find any pleasure in doing so.

  17. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

    Tiassa, I'm getting a clearer view of where your coming from. I have a suggestion. This is not being said in a spiteful tone either. If you don't like wingers, you should come live in Australia. We don't like wingers over here. You can buy two of our dollars for one of yours, and I think your average wage is the same as ours. You are quite welcome, if immigration will let you. I could put in the good word for you to our immigration minister if you like?

    Experience this place, and you shouldn't have any hassles with christians at the ballot box. Over here it is compulsory to vote, so it won't just be the religious few who vote. However, our Arch Bishop for my city is now the governor general (Queens representative) here you will see a Christian trying to help people less fortunate instead of themselves. Watch and see. we are a different breed over here. Easy going (sounds like you), by your member statement, and not all of us shout persecution. In fact, one of my church ministers wants persecution. There was talk recently about banning the church over here or something. And there was talk about the church not existing here because of it. All my minister said was RUBBISH, the church needs a good persecution. He said he wouldn't mind spending some time in jail. I guess I wouldn't either, for the Gospel. What I am getting at, is that we are a different breed over here. Do you exaggerate when you talk about Christianity in the states? I'm sure not all Christians are like that.

  18. SweetM Registered Member

    Agreeing with Lyndale and looking forward to debate

    Hello All,

    In response to Shady_Reaper and other unbelievers that have posted here, I am not going to drop theology on you, or even pelt you with scripture at this point. It is obvious that you know the Christian answers to the questions you asked and don't agree. I live my life for Christ, the Bible is my truth source, and I would be happy to get theological anytime, anyplace.
    For today, however, I want to let you know why I live my life for God, why my faith will never fade, and why I am proud to be a Jesus freak.

    God saved me. He loved me so that He sent His son to be the atonement for sin that I could never come close to erasing on my own, even if I lived a perfect life for the rest of eternity.

    That is what I believe. The proof of this is in my life. When I came to Christ, I was homeless and self destructive, not expected to live past the age of 21. I was pregnant, and my baby's father was an abusive drug dealer that did not want me to continue my pregnancy, my days were spent avoiding him and his friends so I could protect the life inside of me. God found me there and gave me a home, a family, and a purpose. My daughter and I are healthy and happy today. I, whom nobody expected to live past 21, am a junior in college and active in my church.
    God has delivered me from sin, abuse, homelessness, alcohol, cancer and other health problems. He gives me strength and purpose. I would be happy to share my testimony in detail with anyone interested.
  19. teerum Registered Senior Member

    So much was said, so many strong beliefs have been expressed, I keep my mind open to all who speak, I am proud of that ability because it helps me to have a greater understanding of the world and everyone in it. I am glad that you are all here on this page speaking about this, however there is much anger I sense. Anger leads to irrationality and extremism, obviously I understand why there is anger, but I can tell you something that many of you, who seem to have different feelings do not really understand. There is a common thread that runs through ALL of us, think about it, how can there not be?? We are all here as one organism if you will, can we agree that we were all put here the same way? Think about how small we are...just for a moment. Look up at night and realize how small we are. ALL of us. We all must be carfeful not to be to quick to crtisize one another for what we believe. Once we antagonize one another for what we believe, we enclose ourselves in our own little box. I hate cliiches but,,,,,think out of the box. Shady Reaper....I really do not understand God in many ways, or who God is to me, or if he/she is the God that I was raised to belive in. I can go on and on and on and I would enjoy and welcome ANYONES challange as to who God is, or if there is a GOD.....but one thing I do know is that I ... and all of you....are part of something that is so incredible our minds cannot truly comprehend it, that is why we search for something to believe in, cause with out a belief some of us would go insane.....just by not knowing. Let yourselves go and we will begin to understand each other.
  20. Caleb Redeemed Registered Senior Member

    BobbyLee, SweetM:


  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    A couple of points

    Bobby Lee
    Are you suggesting God needs a watch? Without someone to need to tell the time, what need has the Universe of a watch? Is a watch a part of nature like the gold and iron that makes it?

    What you overlook here is manifold:

    * Watch snowflakes, or anything you want in the Universe: what appears naturally in the shape of a cog? Not much.

    * Were you born with clothes on, or did God make your skivvies Himself?

    To take the metaphysical approach, I would assert that you're thinking too small and relevant to yourself. A beach? No. Why? Because the elements that go into a watch (gold, iron, &c ...) do not occur frequently enough according to natural conditions. Of course, where would you get the crystal face? Is there enough silicon and lead occurring alongside the iron and rock? But in the metaphysical, yes, the Universe can create a watch. It does this the same way it creates various other substances not fundamental to nature: through its effects. Just as wasps make a paper-like pulp to construct a nest out of, humans manipulate their environment to create a watch. It's slightly more complex according to most human standards because we recognize "tool use" as including something not inherent to the body, such as a group of chimpanzees observed using sticks and long grass to eat; they would put the stick into a hole in a dirt ridge and withdraw the thing, teeming with ants, which they then consumed. So tool use such as that required to make a watch is a little less inherent than, say, a gland that produces formic acid in your body. But yes, the Universe did eventually evolve to produce a gold watch. There's just not enough resources for it at the beach, is all.
    Beauty is subjective, something one determines for oneself; much like God in that sense.

    Rather, you pick apart the rose to see how it lives to become beautiful. When you've done that, you can feed your subjective craving for beauty and grow fine, fine roses.

    To be honest, that's a concession to the people who have oppressed in the past. One of the most ironic phrases in our free country is "America: love it or leave it." This phrase usually only comes up when people don't want to send their children away to murder and die on foreign shores.

    But that's the thing: we allege ourselves to be free. One should, by proclaimed theory, have the ability to effect change in the society. This is why it was so important to suppress Communism in this country: the greedy saw the potential of being outdone and winning the sentiment of the nation.

    In the Free Thoughts forum, I mumbled something or another about Patriotism, and that's part of the question: Is it patriotic to support one's nation blindly, or to do what one thinks is best for it?

    To flee this land to escape the dullard malaise Christianity has cast over the nation would be to harm it: I would be helping these Christians one step closer to the homogony they lust so dearly. They won't be happy until everyone agrees with them, and if they have to chase people out to do it, they will. This is not freedom, and is why I'm known at Sciforums for declaring the paradox of Christians demanding their rights so that they can effect the removal of those same rights from others. Such silliness is, in fact, part and parcel of American Christianity. Considering the diverse heritage of this nation, and the strength that diversity lends, to leave this nation to homogony would destroy it. And that would have demonstrable negative effect on the world, which would violate my own principle of aiding the species.

    I also wanted to mention that I did see you attempting to address the internal ills of the faith; I sort of beat around the bush, as such, before. And yes, that's exactly what happens when you approach that segment of the faithful--especially in the US--you are determined to be under the influence of Satan ... maybe I should have said it earlier, though, as you've taken to attributing people's ideas to Satan.


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  22. dan1123 Registered Senior Member

    Are you suggesting that humanity is actually <i>part of nature?</i>

    You should really talk to some of those "man is evil" environmentalists

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  23. dan1123 Registered Senior Member

    I think it would be more accurately that they won't be happy until everyone has heard about Jesus (in a manner biased toward Him--but modern society does a good job providing the balance)
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