WHy God Sucks

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Shady_Reaper, Jun 21, 2001.

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  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    There are people like me?

    Lyndale: I'll keep it brief, as I've noted you've begun resorting to the one-liner: "You don't understand!" But some effort is required: If I choose to keep it so brief that there was no text to post, I will have matched your nothing with my nothing, and that's a dumb way to have a debate. Oh, that's right ... I forgot, nobody's supposed to disagree with you.

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    So what exactly is it with you Christians and your Devil? In two thousand years of thinking really really hard about it, the collective force of the Christian sacrificed intellect has produced exactly zero in terms of viable philosophical resolutions. At least when Christians argue Creationism, they have one or two standard arguments before they have to resort to, "It's too complicated!"

    So why don't you establish for us, once and for all, so that we may understand, exactly what purpose the Devil serves in exactly the following context:

    * Christians assert the perfect knowledge of God--that is, God knows all; if you disagree with this perfect knowledge, we can end the discussion here.
    * Christians assert the immutable will of God--that is, God does not make mistakes; if you disagree with this immutable will, we can end the discussion here.

    1) Will the Devil be redeemed? (Something about Jesus and compassion? What's Jesus' limit on salvation?)
    2) What is the extent of the Devil's authority? (Does he not, at least, have God's permission?)
    3) Why does God not stop (defeat) the Devil? (What, as if God couldn't if He so wished?)
    4) Why does God permit, at the very least--though possibly endorse or even commission--the Devil's work? (What purpose does this serve?)
    5) Is God directly responsible for evil? (Consider the above.)

    The truth of the matter is that by the rules the Christians have chosen by the setting of the Canon make the Devil as described for most of history quite impossible. The Devil is a dramatic tool at worst, a scapegoat at best.

    If the Devil operates, he does so with God's full authority; the Devil must necessarily be in good standing (we need not even consider Job, such is the manner of the argument, but there's that, too, in case you try to claim that it's not in the Bible that the Devil has good standing); God, therefore, is directly responsible for evil, which makes the Devil into God's flak-man, and one might wonder that the guy's a little upset because look at the wounds he takes for existing as God created him.

    The "Fall" of the Devil contributes here, too: God foresaw this rebellion, and deemed it necessary to the equation. The Devil behaves exactly as God wants and requires him to. If evil is evil, and should not be, then God has created it and put it into the Universe intentionally. To blame the Devil is the inability of the faithful to consider that God wants it this way. If the Devil is tempting you, it's because God demands that he do. Yes, you specifically. For nothing happens in this Universe, as I understand it, without God's say-so.

    Or does the Devil exist outside God's authority? Is it possible that something exists in this Universe that transcends God's will, escapes His power?
    You've missed an option, and I think Emerald may have presented something quite like this before. So the Devil hates God and wishes to obscure the path. How best to do this? Well, dressing up as a virgin-born sorcerer and political commentator seems to have worked. Many of your fellow Christians at Sciforums claim that we pagans hate not you but God; this is probably true in the sense that we choose not to hate people. So if it's about hating God, how better to do that than to take away from him the apples (so to speak) of his eye? What happens if Satan leads the flock to the dark side? How better to do that than to create an obligatory religion, target it at the least educated and therefore most superstitious people in society (we should note here that Jesus was not working to attract the social elite, the academics, or the rich) such as the uneducated homeless, the social refuse, and those ostracized by their illness. What happens, then, when the sum effect of that religion is the outright defiance of God's commandments? Think of all the killing and hatred that Christians have sponsored throughout history: is this really what God intended? What ever happened to Thou shall not kill? (Lawdog is excepted here, since we already know that his answer is, at best, to plead apathy.) What about coveting your neighbors? What, are American Christians going to blame Manifest Destiny on the Deists? (Did you know that a law existed on the books of Tacoma, Washington, until the 1990's that may still be intact that makes it illegal to sell spirits to a person of indigenous American descent? Somehow, I don't see the Deists giving much of a rip about how much a Native drinks; nor do I recall that fierce Deist heritage of writing useless blue laws. I guarantee you this is a holdover of the temperance and prohibition movements driven by evangelical Christianity.) What the hell wasn't covetous about Manifest Destiny?
    I would advise that you to check out page 9 of Crumbling the foundations of Christianity, in which your fellow Christian Lawdog threatens a culture with extinction(6/9/2001); and later on (page 10, 6/11/2001) when the Dog endorses murder in the name of Jesus. After two thousand years of murder, it seems that Christians still don't get it the way they're supposed to. That's all well and fine for those who know they're imperfect and expect such imperfections, but in the meantime the Christian heart is callous toward the dead. It seems that human life is only reserved to Christian life. If this was a rare thing, and had not two millennia of exemplary history, such a collapse of the thought process would not worry me as much. We know that Christians who bomb medical facilities and shoot doctors aren't following the Bible, but they're right in there with the most glaring trends of Christian faith. We know that men who beat their wives aren't practicing what Jesus said, but what's up with the fact that this still isn't clear? What, is there nothing to be done about it? Are you all just ... waiting around for God to show up and handle it? You, Lyndale, who accuse people of hate, something about a beam in your eye! You would feel persecuted because of something you chose to believe? You would feel persecuted because people are less than comfortable with the brands of violence, hatred, and division you choose to believe in? Your faith is your choice, Lyndale. So is the kicking around of people that has traditionally come with it. As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people. What about it don't you understand that God made these people as they are? Who the hell are you to question God's motives in this Universe? What, does the Almighty have a tech-support desk you can e-mail to tell Him about your perceived bugs in His program? Or do you proceed on faith in your own mortal judgement and try to correct what He has done wrong?

    What is it about other people that Christians find so unacceptable? Yet after two thousand years of declaring that people are not fit to exist as God made them, Christians dare feel persecuted when people talk about what's wrong with the religion?

    Get it together: understand your faith so that everything doesn't feel so much like the hatred you're so determined to find.
    Only two (2) quick notes this time.

    1) I especially agree with the part I've boldfaced.

    2) The farmer should be more careful about what he sows. For after all, what you sow, so also shall you reap.
    I'll agree with this except for two quick points:

    1) I'm about as positive as I can be in my assumption that we have very different criteria regarding the true meaning of Sin and what it means to understand ... well, just about anything.

    2) If I live to see the Judgement, and Christ walks before me, I will expect that He will be the first true Christian I'll ever meet.

    A personal note: How's the camera coming along?

    Actually, I'm quite curious, as I've noted the number of your posts and your registration date: I could have sworn you posted a couple of topics, including one in which you told me to stay out of your posts. In this case, I'm quite sorry to rain on your parade except that, well, you addressed me. But did you pull the topics, or is there another reason they've disappeared? If you're actually another Lyndale, or if that Lyndale was an hallucination, then I kindly beg your pardon. (I must note, though, you both bear a striking similarity in tone.)

    By the way, just what constitutes people like you. Given the associative problems Christians in Oregon have displayed for over a decade, now, I'm kinda curious.

    Oh, yeah. Whoops. Sorry, I didn't keep it brief. Just do your best, dear.

    thanx much,
    Tiassa

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  3. Lyndale Registered Member

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    Re: There are people like me?

    Tiassa
    You are a constant proof, that..." satan hates Christians the most"...keep up the bad work, you make your master proud. Maybe someone else will notice and take steps to find out why and eventually look to God thrue the Son.

    I feel sorry for you Tiassa, your letting your hate blind you.

    May God have mercy on you.

    Lyndale.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    No "E" for effort, even ...

    Try harder. Really.

    But there's one thing that I just can't figure out:
    What reasons motivate you to wish me ill?

    Lawdog has threatened people like me (and you still haven't advised what you mean by that), Loone goes around trumping military metaphors and the triumph of the sword, and now here's you, wishing me, personally, ill.

    But I shall make a note of it that you are either unwilling or incapable of answering even the simpler questions I have asked. Either way, you are demonstrating my point.

    I have faith in people in general, Lyndale, and that's why I'm sure you can do better than that. It just takes a little effort.

    --Tiassa

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  7. Shady_Reaper Registered Member

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    WHy is it that whenever you pin a christian in a corner they say that it's hate. Since when is disbelief or exercising free will hate. WHen did this happen. I wish I had known about it because I would have voted against. And If anyone dasagrees with me it's because they are blinded by hate
     
  8. Lyndale Registered Member

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    ?

    I am continuely amazed, how you twist your/my words and meanings...to establish your HALF TRUTHS.


    Lyndale.
     
  9. Shady_Reaper Registered Member

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    12
    lyndale you are blinded by hate. Youi must accept my beliefs through my non existant son that is the only path to my eternal holy afterlife haven a heaven if you will. If you cannot do this because you are blinded by hate you will be tortured forever in the worst places of all places lets just call it hell. Oh and I need money you can make your donations at my overglorified worship house and I promise it will come to me and because of this you will get into heaven.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,628
    Quick notes

    Shady:

    Thank you for covering that one; I wasn't sure who he was talking to. Of your continual amazement, I wanted to offer a theory that works toward both two forms of negativity that you and I seem to be regarding as hateful.

    I would assert that the hatred conveyed, and the perception of hatred conveyed--that is, both the vitriol of Lyndale's excoriations, and also his perceptions of hatred when differences are on the table--result from the isolation brought about by the haughty assumption of being "God's" elect. What this results in is at least twofold:

    * A reduction of human symathy and a necessary compensation through the means of assumptive empathy. Combined with the presupposition of the worst in people (e.g.--we are all born into sin), the assumptive empathy becomes a primary factor in achieving salvation. One of the faith extends their heart where they know not necessarily what one is engaging. I remember once, hearing someone tell a suicidal that they understand the pain, but this isn't the way of doing it. Now, being that this empathic, understanding person did not share even a common degree of relevant life experience (e.g. had not been raped by her father, silenced by her preacher, and ignored by her mother) I generally question the nature of that empathy. That empathy strove not toward reconciliation of the self, but the greedy end of personal salvation. I hear people who proudly announce that they've never used drugs saying that they understand the drug addict. I hear people who hate homosexuals saying that they understand a homosexual's emotional state. In my own youth, Christians tried daily to tell me what I was thinking and feeling; the upshot of this, of course, was my increased attention to art and its deeper meanings--I have progressed as an artist in ways I may not have. But this reduction of human sympathy and increase of assumptive empathy toward the worst in people results in the hateful-seeming apathy toward the legitimacy of other persons. The bottom line is that no matter how much a person of faith "loves" another, the attempt to redeem that person and convert them to the faith merely reminds that person that someone finds them unacceptable as God made them. Such empathic assumptions, combined with that obsession with sin and darkness, results in a hateful assault against other people.

    * We must remember that people of the Christian faith live amid exceptional dualism. History shows that Christianity requires an all-or-nothing result. Entire nations have fallen to the mercy of this God and His people; every hatred licensed by the superiority of being among God's elect. Amid such bizarre principles, we might possibly see in the modern faith a tendency to assume dualism. That is, since I do not agree with you, I must apparently hate you as God hates those who disagree with Him. Or something quite like that.

    I have to admit that when Oral Roberts said God demanded four-million dollars or else Oral should kill himself ... well, I was kind of surprised that people sent the money. In fact, that period from Roberts through Falwell and Tilton drove nails into my waning fear of God. Hung it on the wall, to be honest. It wasn't the preachers themselves; hell, I could tell they were snake-oilers. But what amazed me time and time again was the response of the faithful. Instead of showing pride by cleaning house, they showed pride by pretending there was no mess.

    Oh, and I need money ....

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    You have made me grin, sir, and I thank you.

    Lyndale:

    As I noted to Shady, I wasn't sure which of whom you were talking to. At any rate, there's a fair chance it's me. In that case, let me advise you that no, I'm not twisting your words.

    * The mercy of your God is a plague. Too many have suffered in the name of that mercy. Too many today suffer in the name of that mercy. It is my opinion that humanity has a better chance of surviving in the Universe without Christianity; I can justify this merely by noting that the religion looks forward to the end of the world. But the human effect has been largely and characteritically detrimental. When you wish the mercy of your God unto me, I can only be comforted by the knowledge that he's more than likely not listening to you.

    It's that assumptive empathy.

    Oh, something for your wisdom to clarify for all of us apparently incapable of understanding:
    Tell you what, I'll concede the point to you if you can demonstrate it syllogistically. Easy enough?

    No, seriously. This I gotta see.

    --Tiassa

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  11. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

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    Hi everyone. Sorry to come into this late but I havn't posted for two or three weeks because my old computer died.

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    It was said in page one that Christians hate other peoples beliefs. I actually think it is great that other people are searching for God. I have been teased by other people because of my belief. I don't hold it against them or say anything derogitory back, instead, I am very pleased that they are just seeking approval by their God.

    Tiassa, what is happening in Colorado and Oregon? I always hear you say that Christianity is ruining and trying to control other peoples lives but I have never heard anything about that. You can call me naive for that. I live in a country where 30% of the population don't believe in any God.

    Thanks.
     
  12. Emerald Registered Senior Member

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    324
    Tiassa,

    Well, after having been out of town on a business trip, I've returned to find you've done all my work for me here - hey, thanks!

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    Yes, I was the one who suggested that Jesus was the one who came to deceive the easily misled. It wasn't a very popular notion, I'm afraid, but thanks for mentioning it.

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    Anyway <b>Shady</b>, speaking of lists, here's a couple of not too irrelevant "top ten" jokes to lighten things up a bit (or not

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    ):

    <a href="http://www.jokesnetwork.com/living/li.reli.html">Comebacks to religious promoters knocking on your door</a>

    <a href="http://www.jokesnetwork.com/living/li.god.html">Signs that God hates you</a>

    Enjoy!

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    Emerald
     
  13. Emerald Registered Senior Member

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    Shady,

    Here is an interesting, not to mention, rather unusual, "top ten" list of reasons to become a devout Christian, which I found on the internet (I'm reprinting it here because unless you go directly to the site and click on the appropriate link from there, what you get is a yellow font color against a white background):

    <a href="http://www.ieway.com/climbit/god_files/top%20ten%20reasons%20for%20jesus%20in%20unbelief.htm">TOP TEN REASONS ON EARTH TO BE A (DEVOUT) CHRISTIAN ASSUMING THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE FOREVER WITH GOD ANYWAY.....</a>

    <font color="green">The idea here is to post scripture references and academic research paper links with each of the Top Ten items... like ‘AMA reports that heavy consumption of alcohol reduces life span of dumb white males.’ If you have any such links –SEND ‘EM!

    #10. NOTHING WILL SHRIVEL UP, FALL OFF, MAKE YOU IMPOTENT, or KILL YOU. e.g. You will have less (perhaps approaching zed, zero, nada, zilch) chance of contracting a sexually transmitted disease (STD) if you’re celibate (ouch! but still possible!!) or faithfully married to your single partner of the opposite sex. (Look we don’t make the rules, we just know its really smart to follow them based on 4000 years of tradition and reams of modern scientific study... but whatever).

    #9. IT’S PART OF YOUR HEALTHY DIET.... A healthy lifestyle of eating habits with emphasis on fruits, nuts, grains, and lean meats (not to mention fowl and bread from heaven) with avoidance of fat and blood (again we won’t mention the temperate use of wine, juices, and water) is GOOD for the body per biblical principles!

    #8. IT’LL HELP YOU BECOME WISER AND CLEVER (sneaky?). There is no better source for wisdom, instruction, and advice on how to be a good person, run a business, treat your enemies, enjoy victory, learn from defeat, stay healthy, have as much fun in the long-run as possible, and generally live as full a life as possible (of course, history is replete with people working the system for their own personal advantage or the destruction of others) than the Bible presents in stories, examples, and teachings. Arguably, one might consider the Koran or perhaps the teachings of Buddha or Confucius to be as valuable, but certainly not any better than the teachings of Jesus embodied in Christianity. Proverbs 9:10, John 10:10

    #7. IF YOU PLAY IT RIGHT YOU CAN EVEN LOOK SMART. The Bible - old and new testaments - is the only ‘religious’ book that has not been found in direct conflict with modern science, physics, astronomy, etc. Yeah, yeah, there’s some controversy over some little details like the Flood, original Creation, but its all in the details! Besides, you don’t care because you’re not really believing in the whole eternal God thing anyway. These are reasons to be a Christian without really believing. Scientists are weirding out ‘cause they may have to decide to believe in something besides randomness and minor fluctuations in the Second Law of Thermodynamics.. yikes! You could be one step ahead and already be a Bible-Believin-Dr-Hugh-Ross-Thinkin-Bill-Nye-Lookin-Physics- Quotin-Disciple before it becomes popular, kind of like going to the Pearl Jam concert in Austin TX at Liberty Lounge in 1993 (?) right before Jeremy hit MTV, no? (Anyone remember Pearl Jam?). Besides, old Jewish scholars in the 8th century were already talking superstrings and the existence of God in 10 dimensions, so what’s new under the sun anyway.... be hip... or whatever... God and old earth creation .. death of gradualism... anthropic principle (or is it princi-pal)... intelligent design... just keep repeatin stuff like that and you’l be all over it. Check out http://www.reasons.org/index.html

    #6. IT’LL HELP YOU MAKE AND KEEP FRIENDS AND A LOVER. Low on friends? Who isn’t? Dumped by that loser boyfriend again? Yeah! You know, an excellent argument can be made that there is no better source for wisdom, instruction, and advice on how to be a good person, maintain good relationships, show love, and generally live as full a life as possible (of course, history is replete with people working the system for their own personal advantage or the destruction of others) than the Bible presents in stories, examples, and teachings. Arguably, one might consider the Koran or perhaps the teachings of Buddha or Confucius to be as valuable, but certainly not any better than the teachings of Jesus found in Christianity.

    #5. FORGIVENESS & A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. Christianity is the only ‘religion’ that teaches that forgiveness for ourselves and from us to others is a fundamental right of existence. Most religions either conclude you have nothing to feel guilty or require forgiveness from.... do they have your conscience?! They certainly dont have mine! In other systems of thought, forgiveness either does not really exist (it is a deception) which is kind of ridiculous as far as I know or they teach it must be earned. If you are good enough you get forgiven. If not, too bad. That’s a rough world, where you never get to hear “Sorry dude” or “It’s cool” e.g. forgive you” from your mom, dad. sister, cat, brother, friend, dog, boyfriend, spouse, etc.

    #4. COMMUNITY, INCLUSION, AND A HELPING HAND. Christians maintain a tight ‘community’ that helps each other out and does stuff together. There is a group of people who know you, miss you, and want to do stuff with you! In many unfortunate examples, some groups of Christians dont seem to want new members or people who aren’t like them - they forget what they used to be like. In all cases, anybody will eventually get accepted because that’s what Jesus said to do, so we’re stuck with you! And once everybody gets to know you, turns out you’re not so bad after all. A sense of belonging, of being included in something that is bigger than you, is what results. You could get that at the local pub or gentleman’s night club, I guess, but the cover charges are terrible and no-one seems to come around once you really need some serious help. There’s always the Kiwanis and Lions Club but doggone it those membership fees are killer.

    #3. YOU WON’T HAVE TO BE CONFUSED BY STRANGE CONCEPTS LIKE RIGHT AND WRONG! This is similar to #8 but way different... waz’ up! Oh yeah, in Christian belief there is a very clear distinction between RIGHT (stuff the Bible says is OK or good for you) and WRONG (stuff on the other end of that spectrum). This allows one to live a pretty uncluttered, semi-un-confusing, unambiguous kind of life. When people say, ‘Hey, dude, let’s go get wasted.’ you can check the concordance (index of words) for wasted or something similar and can’t find it... so you call some old guy at the church (he’s 30 or something) and he directs you to that same bible without ‘wasted in the directory’ and it says that your body is the temple of God and that you’re supposed to be temperate in all things and PRESTO! it turns out that getting wasted is wrong. What a relief.... without that little tidbit of information, you might have spent a lot of time either a) wondering and worrying if you should go do this or b) vomiting, nursing a hangover, holding funeral services for dead brain and liver cells, etc. What’s weird about all this is that even when we do stuff the Bible says is wrong (AKA ‘SIN’) Christianity is so cool because we just pray to God in heaven (which we don’t really believe in, right?) and get our sin transferred over to another God-division/department and off ourselves!!! Clean conscience and everything (see related topic #5), that is assuming we REALLY are sorry about that little failing we had and will struggle not to repeat it. It’s a great system for a healthy state of mind (emotional health). Incidentally, what the Bible calls right and good has largely been shown to contribute measurably (see article links below) to long life, psychological wellness, life span, etc. and vice versa (note that the alpha case for AIDS/HIV was a homosexual man - well, it was - we can’t be politically correct all the time, can we.... oh,,,,, we can? sorry.)

    #2. YOU’LL HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOUR FREE TIME AND IT WILL SEEM LIKE YOU’RE DOING SOMETHING POSITIVE AN BIGGER THAN YOURSELF AND MAYBE I WONT BE SO ALONE AND THE LONELINESS IS WORST AT NIGHTS AND ETC> ETC> ETC> ETC> As a 14 year old girl wearing leather and a spiked dog collar once told us, ‘Yeah, everyone is born with some kind of hole in their heart and they try to fill it.’ Based on #3-#10 on the Top Ten List, might as well fill it with Christianity?! Why NOT? Why not fill it with vibrant, full, deep, passionate Christianity (which does include the Song of songs you know as a Christian lover’s guide to passion and delight in marriage - it also tells some wild parallels between the same deal and how Christ might think of the church as his bride if you were nuts enough to get whacked by the Holy Spirit and believe in stuff like, well, like the Holy Spirit and the new Jerusalem and eternal city of God, etc.). By the way, I am appalled that Christians are NOT any fun... I’ve seen many, many dull Christians and its just not BIBLICAL!!! Let’s buck up here and live like we believe the Bible on Daniel, Elijah, Joseph, John the Baptist (that dude could hike and camp anywhere!) etc.... Where was I? Oh yes, we all seek to fill that hole in our hearts with something bigger than us. We wanna belong. We wanna be ‘right.’ We wanna be ‘tough’ we wanna be ‘popular’ we wanna be ‘outcasts’ we wanna be ‘goodies’ or ‘unforgiven’ or whatever. The truth is we wanna be anything but us.

    and the #1 reason ON EARTH TO BE A (DEVOUT) CHRISTIAN ASSUMING THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE FOREVER WITH GOD ANYWAY.....

    #1. IT ALL SEEMS SO REAL..... The Christian life seems so remarkably REAL. Bad things happen (wow). Good things happen (hmmm). Stuff rocks. Other stuff sucks. But when you are convinced (or at least deceiving yourself) that your life here is but a waking dream, that gives all those good and bad things a strangely different twist ... a new perspective. You respond differently (at least some percentage of the time) than somebody who’s convinced that their entire life and sole chance for happiness DIED with the cancellation of the Everclear concert in Portland... For a Christian, one can always convince themselves, like - so what? Will Everclear be in heaven? If not, too bad. If so, maybe we can jam up there (or so the thought process might go). The point is (and Jesus said this in John 10:10): that Christians have the ability to embrace life and live life to the fullest - the highest highs, the lowest lows, and all the neat interludes in between. Most people miss most of their lives because they’re not paying attention - like driving home after a really great time with a new ‘love’ or after an inebriating early morning encounter with a ditch/tree/ stop sign/police officer.... uhhh, i never saw it, officer. Christians have the ability to embrace life and say ‘Let it come, God, I’m ready to ROCK!’ We soak up the pain and that last cup of sorrow and cry the guts out and then we’re fresh again, because after all - God is on our side, right? Then we can jump up and down and smash a few guitars/glasses/rocks/soccerballs/(insert-your-word-here) out of the sheer joy of living life with good friends, solid beliefs, firm foundations, and FUN things to do.

    I guess it would be hard to do this if you don’t truly believe that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God, the same as God stuffed into a little temporal earth-suit (I stole this phrase from Kyle Miller, Austin TX, Professional Christian Counseling Service pccs@flash.net) who died to pay for my bad mojo (sin - kinda like bail money to pay my behavioral debt to God) and then loved me enough to LIVE again and have a cool time hanging out as my older brother and helping me along. Whatever, you gotta believe in something, even if it’s wrong. Some old fart band named RUSH had a line that said ‘If you choose not to believe you still have made a choice...’ duh. And a sad, lonely choice! Join the ranks of the self-deceived & terminally infested with the Spirit of the Living GOD!!! TODAY! Look down, think up, and say ‘Jesus, HELP ME! Save me! Fix me! Self-deceive me today and never go away... Place your Spirit within me, Jesus! Make the self-deception real until all I see is You! Rock me, Lord... and keep holdin on. Amen.’ or somethin like it.

    j lee davis

    spokane WA

    99 Feb 22</font>

    Hmmm...I don't think I've ever quite seen that approach before. So I guess the real reason for becoming a Christian all boils down to personal gain? Well, I guess I knew that already, but it's unusual to see someone who appears to be a Christian actually come out and boldly admit it like that. What is <i>really</i> astonishing is the fact that this person would unashamedly admit that it is all nothing but self-deception! Who says there's nothing new under the sun?

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    Emerald

    <b>Edit note:</b> Editing to fix link.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2001
  14. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

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    1,024
    SCREW YOU!

    Just because you don't believe in God, or says that "he sucks" doesn't mean you have the right to bashing Christianity. I take offense to that as Roman Catholic. You are so stupid that you should have post this thread in the Atheist category, not Christianity. I hate people that don't know what they are doing. And when I find something that you Shady_Reaper believe in I will tear that believe to shreds.
    I TAKE THIS AS INSULT TO MY FAITH, AND SO WOULD THE OTHER ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS ON EARTH.

    The next believe that you post, religious or scientific will be ripped apart by fangs-o-destruction. Brace yourself, my mind unleashed isn't a pretty site.


    "In a fight go straight for the jugular." -- Me.
     
  15. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,024
    -- Shady_Reper.

    Once again you don't know what you are talking about, the Bible states that there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual. It becomes a problem when you have gay sex, you can't go to hell for just being gay. Sexuall perference isn't a sin in God's eyes.
     
  16. Emerald Registered Senior Member

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    324
    Re: SCREW YOU!

    Curly,

    Interesting response. I think <b>Tiassa</b> would suggest that you might just be an <i>agent provocateur</i>, oui? Why do you entice Christians to violence against non-Christians? Is that what your religion is all about? Or are you simply doing your part to weed out the <i>tares</i>? Isn't that supposed to be the function of your Satan? If so, do you think he will appreciate your efforts on his behalf and reward you accordingly? Just curious...

    Emerald
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,628
    Deadwood: re--Oregon/Colorado

    Oregon: In the late 1980's, a conservative Christian PAC formed, called the Oregon Citizens' Alliance (OCA). The original cause, as I recall, had something to do with Oregon's liberal abortion laws, and the curtailing or revocation thereof. In 1989 or so, a Christian parent objected to a book in the Springfield, Oregon, public library, entitled Heather Has Two Mommies. After civic officials determined that the contradiction of one religion's canonical values was insufficient cause to remove the book from circulation, the OCA set about changing the law. In 1990, the OCA fostered two successful measures in Corvallis and Springfield which made it illegal for the local governments to "endorse, encourage, or promote" homosexuality. Objectionable books were removed from the shelves.

    Encouraged by this success, the OCA moved toward a statewide ballot measure, aimed at the 1992 general election. Known as Measure 9, the measure would have changed the Oregon state constitution to prohibit any government agency in Oregon from"endorsing, encouraging, or promoting" homosexuality. The implications of Measure 9 (M9) as written were enormous: Civil libertarians cited possible interpretations of the law that would allow the firing of state employees on grounds of suspsected homosexuality: teachers, police officers, firemen ... typing pools from around the state and local government offices .... The state would further be unable to prosecute anti-gay violence as a hate crime, and there would be some legal question as to whether a DA would be allowed to refute a superstitious, anti-gay defense, such as the threat one feels, because that state ballot measure said that gays commit 95% of child molestations (an unsupportable statistic thrown into the OCA's official literature for panic's sake). Can you imagine being evicted from your apartment because your roommate is of the same gender? The state cannot prosecute the wrongness of this without endorsing homosexuality as acceptable behavior. Schools would be obliged by M9's language to address homosexuality only when it came up from the students, and then further obliged to describe it as morally deviant, socially detrimental, and otherwise negative. Counselors facing students with confused sexual impulses would be obliged to directly discourage homosexuality as wrong. Libraries censored, civic events denied, and all because one group of Oregon Christians repeatedly manages at least 40% at the ballot box every damn year (there was one year, maybe two disparate years, in the 90's, when the OCA didn't dominate the electorate's attention). M9 failed in 1992 by a narrow margin; the OCA is repeatedly encouraged by their respectable showing at the ballot box. Scott Lively, of the OCA, published a book in which he attempted to establish modern homosexuals as the literal and current Nazi party. Phillip Ramsdell, of the OCA, published in the voter's guide a list of sexually-oriented terms which caused general revulsion and was quite effective in portraying the "sick" side of homosexuality until it was pointed out that heterosexuals like this stuff, too. The OCA in general has always maintained a goal to equate homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality (and necrophilia) in their public statements. They like to string the terms together in their ballot measures, which is part of why they fail.

    * http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2538 is a thread from the Religious Debate Archives in which Bowser and I slugged it out on last year's OCA monster, which failed. The scariest thing is that the language hasn't changed that much; they keep rewording the scope of the effect in an effort to slip the same measure by the public. It should be noted that the OCA attempted to expand into Washington (WCA) and Idaho (ICA), but both chapters eventually failed for lack of public interest.

    * http://www.oregoncitizensalliance.org

    Colorado: Having not lived through Colorado in Colorado, I can give you only a sketch.

    * In 1992, a group called Coloradon for Family Values, sponsored Amendment 2, almost identical in its language to OCA M9. Amendment 2 passed; as a constitutional amendment, it circumvented judicial review and became part of the judicial standard. Federal lawsuits were filed, injuctions granted, and the law suspended until it was eventually gutted in the federal courts.

    * CFV founders (McCarty, I believe is the one I'm thinking of) are also organizers of the ill-fated Promise Keepers movement.

    And then I've got a number of issues with the Republican Party in Colorado, which instructs its state senators in how to vote, at the stake of future campaign funds.

    Side note: Of the whole debacle, one of the results has been that people now routinely sue to hold up public ballot measures. Where we see issues of the law taking away the presence of rights not otherwise suspended in the case of Amendment 2 and M9, part of Oregon's Christian response has been to sue all ballot measures with which they disagree. For instance, Oregon's Measure 16, the Right to Die. That one was held up in the courts, reaffirmed by the people in a separate election and held up in the courts some more on the strange grounds that granting a person the right to die was somehow unfair to that person. I've lost track, at present, of that measure.

    But Oregon and Colorado are two places in which the 1990's witnessed a religious storm aimed toward moral governance. In Oregon, at least, the ugliness goes on.

    Incidentally, I can't seem to locate Colorado for Family Values' website. Google and Lycos both, however, provide a plethora of the backlash.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  18. Emerald Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    324
    Re: Deadwood: re--Oregon/Colorado

    Tiassa,

    It appears they haven't yet moved into the 20th Century (let alone the 21st). Undoubtedly, computers and the internet are all part of an evil plot to destroy families.

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    But they do have an address and phone number:

    Colorado for Family Values
    3709 Parkmoor Village Drive
    Colorado Springs, CO 80917

    (719) 573 - 4229

    Emerald
     
  19. Deadwood Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    386
    As a Christian you should not hate anyone.

    Interesting, the two on this forum who say they are Roman Catholic, seem to show hate towards non believer. Friends, witness the ones responsible for the Crusades and the inquisition. Ones who have not love but hate for others. I assure you not all Roman Catholics are like this, I know many who love others. Its the ones who don't that really detract from our Christian faith.

    I ask you The curly and Lawdog, learn what love is, learn real Christian virtues. Do not turn Christianity into a bunch of laws. The two greatest commandments which Jesus taught were love the Lord your God, and Love you neighbour. I don't see evidence of this in your posts. I ask you to take some time to examine yourself. This is what I am taught at church. Don't be stubborn, find out who you really are in Christ Jesus. Be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Begin to really experience the Christian life.

    I also know what the people at this post are saying when they say that Christians are always trying to find ways to make themselves think that they are hated by people around them. I find it annoying to. It is about time that Christians (not all of us included) quit sopping in a corner and experience the daily wonders of the Christian life. PRAISE GOD!!!

    What is your faith based on. The love of Jesus Christ or the hate of others to do not believe as you do. I do sincerely hope you answered to the first and not the former.

    Thanks for your time.

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  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,628
    Thanx much, Emerald

    I just keep hoping that they go away.

    Were I CFV, I would add every hate mailer to the mailing list. That oughta teach 'em . But seriously, that might be it: can you imagine having to sort through that email mess? I bet keeping phone operators is tough enough.

    And that mailroom ... not a chance I'd set foot in there.

    It's only people's lives and livelihoods at stake: I can't imagine why anyone would be upset.

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    It's the price of being an American, I guess.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  21. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

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    I have to modify my statement

    I'm clearing up my statement not to cover my ass but to clarify what I meant. When I get anxious about subjects, I the hands move faster than the brain if you catch my drift.

    When I said, "I hate people that don't know what they are talking about." I meant hate in the scene of it agitates me when they don't know what they are talking about and proclaim their ideas as infallible and almighty. I didn't mean hate in the context of spite or malice. Actually I think of myself as a fairly inclusive and open minded person when it comes to a lot of subjects.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,628
    Um ... Curly?

    It's nice of you to clear up the hate item, Curly, but what about this?

    What you seem to think is that people are arbitrarily attacking Christianity. What, is there no merit behind the pattern of abusive behavior documented by the infidels?

    So if Shady believes the sky is blue, will you tear that belief to shreds?

    Or will you wait until Shady is advocating something which is either wrong, or the justifications for which are incorrect?

    As it's written, it doesn't matter what that belief it: as it's written, if Shady says that he believes rape is wrong, you'll argue with him that it's right.

    Bottom line: yes, it is possible to read through what someone writes until we reach what they're expressing. Strangely, though, we're only welcome to do that reading through if the result attributes something positive to the person. So the end result is that it is as unwise to assume the positive about the poster as it is to assume the negative. Left with a literal interpretation of what you're writing, Curly ... it's not encouraging, is it?

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  23. thecurly1 Registered Senior Member

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    1,024
    I will be unscribing to this thread...

    This is my last post, everyone has to nit pick and take apart every statement. I would be curious if anyone has found the word, "figuratively" in their lexicon. I was obviously (or so I thought) talking about any religious or quasi-religious believes, not weather the retarded sky is blue or not. Don't reduce my statements to such triviality, because you know that wasn't what I was talking about.
    Not everything is suppose to be take so damn literally, this is something the society has forgot in the past few decades. I cleared up my misinterpreted statement. The core subject of my original post was that he shouldn't go around bashing subjects, especially religion because he doesn't believe in them. I wasn't bashing but venting my anger on his unabaded, ripping into my religion which I find insulting. The statement that Shady_Reaper said was to be taken literally, not figuratively. I hope someone out there can understand what I was trying to express.

    P.S. Deadwood, I don't need a bible study class in what Jesus Christ was about, I am well aware of this and think its arrogant of you to tell me what his lessons were.
    Plus you are almost say that I and Lawdog are quasi-Christians and that we don't know what we are talking about. Even if I do hate someone, this doesn't necessarily sprout from a religious believe. You are using religion as a tool to further advance your dislike for my opinions. I would think as a true Christian you would have more common sense than that.
    DON'T BOTHER REPLYING TO THIS POST, I WON'T BE ATTENDING THE CHRISTIANITY, OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS SECTION OF SCIFORMS FOR QUITE A WHILE. EVERYONE IN HERE IS HYPOCRITICAL TO SOME EXTENT.
     
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