Discussion in 'World Events' started by Sci-Phenomena, Aug 30, 2006.
Ah the old days before I informed myself about Israel
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Hey man, just because a bunch of third world backwaters need their weapons fed to them on a silver platter by a real country like Russia or China in exchange for oil and carpets, doesn't mean Israel got its nukes from the US in turn. They've got a whole domestic industry set up with all the necessary capabilities. The US didn't even want them to have nukes, at least certainly not in the 60's.
Well the Soviet Union had nearly 100 000 of them, each of which was thousands of times more powerful than anything Iran has the capability of making in the next 10 years (even with Russian spoon-feeding). And how'd that go for the USSR? Best way to deter the US from kicking your ass: don't pick fights with them unless they're already walking straight over your back. Just don't start, period. Take a deep breath, and then put the Jihad away for storage in some dusty attic. Or do whatever you think is right- go ahead and fight the US, kill however many of them you can, and expect to end up whining about how you took 1000X the casualties and collateral damage, and possibly losing some of your territory to them as they clean it out from top to bottom and make it their 51st state.
You may be right about this.
Going by this source (however dubious it appears):
Israel went behind the back of the US to get the nukes. It's kinda amazing how the US is still an Israel ally after this and USS Liberty incident.
But they didn't get invaded did they? I guess that's the main benefit, although they did collapse economically.
No, they collapsed largely due to their own incompetence, and the inability to expand and take over functional countries and resources. They couldn't expand and take over other countries because for every warhead they produced, the US had one of its own ready to shove straight up their arses, as it will to anyone else who tries to challenge them in that kind of exchange. And the maintenance and construction of these warheads constituted a massive drain on the Soviet Union's limited economic assets in the first place, so it worked out very badly for them and now they can't even maintain a large enough arsenal to overpower America's upcoming ABM defense networks.
If a country like Iran produces a few nukes to try and scare others off, not only will other countries like Israel massively escalate their own stockpiles in response, and Arab countries opposed to Iran might get their hands on some of their own too, but it will also force the US and Europe to put Iran under quarantine or blockade, and to heavily sanction anyone who dares try to undermine such efforts (to this very day, by far, China still needs the US far more than the US needs them, so it wouldn't be worth their while to render substantial assistance to Iran like they have with North Korea).
Without good markets or physical access to good markets in which to sell oil and buy gasoline and spare parts, Iran's already gradual regression will rapidly escalate as the last remnants of the Shah's original infrastructure deteriorate. That country already looks like Cuba- a gradually crumbling museum of leftovers from a time when they weren't ruled by some bearded self-entitled nut, with ever-decreasing options for turning things around as the decades pass and the rot increases. Not to say the previous Batista/Shah was such a great guy, but still no worse than what they've got now.
Going a bit off topic here, but I never really understood why the USSR choose to go toe to toe militarily with the US. Even at its height, IIRC the USSR economy never surpassed 1/3 of the US (correct me if I'm wrong).
At this point, Iran is indeed stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think its still a massive waiting game to see who dies first. Can Iran last long enough for the US/Israel to collapse economically allowing a tip in the balance of power? Say BillyT's famous US collapse by Halloween 2014 comes to pass and the US can no longer enforce military sanctions - that would ba a major game changer. Hard to predict either way.
A US economic collapse would probably cripple Iran just through the indirect ripple effects. The real waiting game is to see when the Iranians finally decide to rise up, topple the religious retards dictating how they live their lives, and put into place a government that both protects their sovereignty and understands the importance of keeping backward superstitions separate from any government business that affects the people. And this time there won't be an Ayatollah hiding out in France to come in at the last minute and claim the throne after it's been vacated.
Not gonna happen. I don't think you guys have any clue about Iran at all. Neither will a US economic collapse affect them, thanks to the US sanctions against them since 1980, their major economic partners are BRIC and their banking system is divorced from the American one.
But a major US economic collapse will be catastrophic for Israel which depends on US goodwill to continue its occupation and EU trade to support its economy
Yeah, I don't know a thing about their state press suppressing all mention of the massive drug and unemployment problems there. I don't know a thing about the infrastructure deficit they've been piling up since the 70's and the buckets of rust they use to fly their citizens around.
BRIC will be hit extremely hard if the US goes into economic collapse/depression. China especially; without the ability to sustain fast economic growth through the export of cheap manufactured crap, their government will need to find new excuses to stay in charge and keep sticking it to the evil capitalist bourgeoisie.
Yeah it would hurt Israel pretty badly, but I think they'd be able to make up the difference by changing their government spending priorities (i.e. subsidies for religious schooling), and freezing all funding for the construction and security of new settlements. Of course that would require an actual commitment from Israel to make peace, otherwise they'll have their hands full with problems from inside and out.
Whatever. They have expressed their hatred of Israel over and over in numerous other ways. He's a lying sack of crap.
Its called economic sanctions. The irony is that:
Nope China is working on a very different paradigm, one where it has consolidated its next 50 years of resources by paying for them with going-to-be-worthless dollars - this gets rid of the dollars plus ensures that they get what they need. They're also heavily invested in US assets and are probably eyeing the vast tracts of fertile land they will need to feed their population.
What China now outsources to the US: fruit-picking
You can read about what the other BRIC countries are doing in Billy's posts, not to say there will not be an impact, but it won't be as bad as it will be for the US and the EU, who unlike Iran have invested only in weapons. Iran has downgraded investment in weapons to less than 4% from 25% under the Shah investing all of it in social reform programs which help them to sustain themselves under sanctions.
Well can't fault your optimism - maybe you can see the West Bank settlers putting the economy before their settlement enterprise. I can't
really did happen? you really are a sick basterd to discount all the pain and suffering the nazis caused.
Note the date on that post, pjdude1219.... 2006
simple answer is it doesn't. in fact early on Iran was an ally of Israel. and you all can talk about the president of Iran all you want but the only reason he is still in office is because of the attention the us and Israel gives him.
What a laugh.
You only ever see what you want to see.
He probably is a "lying sack of crap", but the thing is I think both sides are "lying sacks of crap" and I don't see why we need to take the position of either side. If you're gonna choose a side, at least choose the one with the oil.
Why do we use our UN veto to block resolutions comdemming Israel, while pushing for more condemming Iran? They are both "lying sacks of crap". At this point, being an Israeli ally actually HURTS the US more then it helps.
Why would they need to trade with heathen imperialist infidels to sustain their "superior" quality of life? What does that have to do with stifling a free press from reporting what's actually happening there?
Where the heck has China consolidated 50 years of future resources? Definitely hasn't been from Canada or the US. Don't think Iran and Venezuela will be able to meet their needs, and it seems Africa on the whole is no more keen on opening itself to Chinese imperialism than it has ever been to the US or Europeans. Maybe you think India has what they need?
Firstly China has enough food to feed its existing population, and is trying to reduce that population, not grow it until cannibalism is the only way to survive. Secondly, we don't sell land to foreigners, we lease it, meaning once they stop paying taxes or the lease expires, it's ours again. So China's welcome to buy all the fruits, meats and veggies they want from us or to invest in whatever properties they like, because every deal they sign has a big fat US or Canadian flag on it clearly indicating who makes the laws on the lands in question. Forget about resources, China needs to figure out in 50 years how to make a comfortable life out of breathing smog and drinking industrial runoff.
Uhm... What social reforms in Iran are we talking about, besides redistributing whatever's still left over from the Shah? Last I heard, Ahmadinejad failed to deliver on his ridiculous promises to curb unemployment, the people got upset, and the state had a to invoke a little bit of a friendly, humanitarian bloodbath to end protests after their latest election.
So you think the US and EU only invest in weapons... that's real rich, how very well-informed you must be Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. No, you'll find their economies are far more diverse than that, also they spend far smaller proportions of their income on religious studies as compared to studies that produce demonstrably useful results.
I have a hard time seeing it either, just saying that's an option they still have at their disposal, and it will make giant leaps towards solving any remaining or future issues they would have regarding trade, recognition etc., with or without US financial or military backing.
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They don't as proved by their stable economy after 30 plus years of sanctions.But Americans still have their money in frozen assets and deny them access to it. They also use their muscle to prevent other people from doing business with Iran. But as we have seen, although American muscle has had an adverse effect on the prosperity of the Iranian nation, they haven't managed to put them out of business yet.
I'm not sure what "free press" you are talking about. Iranians have more free press than Americans do. Watch Press TV sometime. Its remarkable how much opinion of other media westerners have when their own is crippled by foreign lobbies. Of course there is propaganda, but the media there does not spend all its time looking for non-existent WMDs and calling to bomb other countries for imagined contraventions of international law.
You can read up on where China has consolidated its resources around the world. Just follow its investments in the world market. India and China both have something which the other needs. Together, they are 2 billion people and a good enough market for each other for many things.
Which has what to do with outsourcing agriculture to the west?
If you're interested in what social reforms Iran has invested in over the last 30 years and inspite of sanctions, you'll have to do your own homework. You can start with healthcare which is better than the US. Even though the US media keeps telling us how terrible Iran is as a government they seem to lack the foreknowledge that Iranians have the freedom to choose what kind of government they want, as they have proved several times in the past.
I don't think their economies are as diverse as you make out. They deal only in paper assets and have outsourced much of what constitutes production and manufacture. I only have to walk down market street to notice that we now build all the foreign brands in clothing, cars, electronics, you name it. What do Americans build, beside debt? They even need someone else to come pick their vegetables.
Export businesses are closing down in Israel or doing badly even in the US. As the ME becomes more representative in governance, there will be a further blowback to Israeli economy [ Israel's exports to Egypt down 18 per cent in 2011 ] What Israel has not yet recognised that its economy going down affects no one else, not the US, not EU, not its neighbors. Unlike the US, there is no incentive to keep the Israeli economy afloat from outside Israel. Israelis are very foolish, they don't seem to recognise that by creating a belligerent stance against their neighbors, they cut off vital alternatives to the failing western economies - and through their continuing occupation, make their businesses subject to disinvestment by all others [see Agrexco shut down ] Inside Israel, people are having tent protests. Settlement housing is cheaper [if you're okay with shooting the people that used to live there] - as the economy worsens, more Israelis will move to the settlements, not less.
Yes, it was held. This was the result of the laws in most of the western European countries that consider Holocaust denialism a crime (as well as saying anything good about Nazism). It's a perfect example of why America reveres free speech even though it means we have to allow Religious Redneck Retards to picket the funerals of servicemen killed in action because "God hates gay marriage and that's why he let them die."
Wouldn't it have been nice if the Holocaust Denial Festival could have been held in Vienna or Amsterdam? Every time the attendees stepped out for fresh air or a drink, they would have been mobbed by elderly Jews with concentration camp tattoos. They could also probably have found hookers a lot more readily in Vienna or Amsterdam than in Tehran. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Even though Mrs. Fraggle and I are atheists and I didn't even know what "Jewish" meant until I was seventeen, we both have enough "Jewish blood" that Hitler would have happily gassed us. So that question occasionally comes up at the dinner table.
It's an old one. There has been antisemitism since at least the Roman era. (Yes I know that the Arabs, Aramaeans, and many other Middle Eastern people are/were also Semites, but the word "antisemitism" is now universally defined to refer only to Jews.) In fact, looking back through history it appears that antisemitism was one of the defining traits of European Christendom, from the fourth century when Emperor Constantine converted and made it the state religion, until the twentieth century when the good Christian people of Germany and the northwestern Slavic nations turned a blind eye to the Holocaust--or pitched in and helped.
* I must always footnote this diatribe with the fact that the good Christian people of Bulgaria and Scandinavia put themselves at great risk to save their Jews from the ovens, and that throughout Europe many people performed heroic feats to save individuals and families. History is never as simple as it looks and it seems that there are good people everywhere.
But as to the specific question of why the modern state of Israel is the subject of so much hatred... Well for starters it's a giant repository for Jews, a people that much of the world still hates. If Israel had not been established, many of the "displaced persons" of WWII would have drifted back to Europe. There were still many Europeans who would have treated them with violence, but without the "fog of war" that even the Nazis admitted made the Holocaust possible, the majority of them would have survived. Zionism was never the philosophy of the majority of European Jews, who considered themselves Europeans who happened to be Jewish; it was a philosophy that became attractive when the American army (specifically Gen. MacArthur) wanted them to leave Europe and go live somewhere else, because he didn't want to have to station even more troops there for the explicit purpose of protecting them.
If the Jews had stayed in Europe they would have continued to assimilate. It's possible to predict how that would have turned out, by looking at America, where the world's largest Jewish community lives. (There are more Jews here than in Israel.) The leaders of that community constantly complain that the biggest threat to the existence of Jewry as a distinct ethnic group (now that mass slaughter is no longer practiced) is--are you ready for this?--assimilation! Jews are so unremarkably accepted in America's melting pot that they have no more reason to wall themselves in and keep separate.
It's very likely that if they had stayed in Europe, the same thing would have happened. The Europeans have stopped killing each other and are now loaning each other billions of dollars. They would probably treat the Jews the same way, and they would be assimilating at record speed there too.
So the existence of Israel means that the world continues to have an identifiable community of Jews. For people who hate Jews, this gives them good reason to focus their hatred on that country. Without Israel the Jews might be fading into history alongside the Natufians, Philistines, Tocharians, Harappans, Etruscans, Picts and Incas. None of those people died out, they just assimilated.
But there's also a second, modern reason why people hate Israel. Israel was created for the specific purpose of apologizing to the Jews for centuries of discrimination, often of a violent nature. So what do they do to express their gratitude? They establish discrimination, often of a violent nature, against the Palestinians. I don't think this is what anybody had in mind when they started planning the creation of Israel.
Even among the younger generation of Jews in America, the people who were born long after WWII and the Holocaust, there is considerable animosity toward Israel. It's driving a wedge between them and the older generation who steadfastly support Zionism and Israel.
* Another footnote. Yes, I know that the Israel-Palestine issue is far more complicated than this. There's plenty of blame to lavish on both sides. But it's sensible and customary to lay the blame for the flaws in any system on the people who are in charge of that system. The Israeli government is in charge of both the Israelis and the Palestinians, so both custom and common sense suggest that the blame for the problems that have endured for more than a generation, and the responsibility for fixing them, falls primarily upon Israel.
Do you think your reasons apply to Iran Fraggle?
the chinese and the indians? japan? s.e asia? africa? the natives in the americas and austronesia?
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