Why does action-at-a-distance have to be "spooky"?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by cosmictotem, Oct 13, 2016.

  1. cosmictotem Registered Senior Member

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    This is an even better argument than mine so....THIS^

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  3. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry it took so long to get it all out there. Evidently, I was waiting for a gravity wave to be detected.

    And for the record, sciforums moderated me faultlessly on my prejudice against Minkowski. It was undeserved, and I apologize.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    We've established that - by definition - the two events are both physically and causally isolated from each other.

    So, they can't be isolated events AND the same event.
     
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  7. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

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    One of the interpretations of quantum mechanics involves the rejection of the claim that physical separation in space is enough to isolate a system. Under this interpretation, two entangled particles would always be the same system, regardless of physical separation.
     
  8. The God Valued Senior Member

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    This is misleading.
    This is exception rather than rule. Certain
    entangled states can be described locally, thats why entanglement is not sufficient for non locality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
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  9. cosmictotem Registered Senior Member

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    Aren't planets physically separated from their stars but "entangled" by gravity?
     
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  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    In a sense, yes. But that's not what the term "entangled" means in terms of quantum physics.
     
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  11. cosmictotem Registered Senior Member

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    Some more fuel for this discussion:

     
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  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Macroscopic obejcts don't have entangleable properties in that sense.
    You don't have two Earths, one spin up and one spin down.
     
  13. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    I can't go any further in the discussion without taking it off the tracks, but if anyone else has a thought or two about extending the idea, by all means do so.

    As for the video, (is that Dr. Quantum?) the square root of -1 appears whenever something like a wave function propagates in space, mainly to mathematically capture the idea of the unreality of the same energy propagating as well in the reverse physical direction as it does in the direction that is natural based on initial and boundary conditions of the event that caused it to propagate in the first place. It's no big mystery. It doesn't justify the view that space and time are inseparable, nor that space somehow has an existence that is independent of time or frame of reference, nor that the speed of light is the fundamental basis of time (as Minkowski supposed and stipulated), nor anything like it. Entanglement is literally the basis of time.

    It's not really true that matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time as other matter because "the same space" is undefined for unbound energy, and it's not really true that no two events cannot be seen (or alternatively, "observed") to occur at the same time in two different reference frames, because such a statement excludes bound energy events that are quantum entangled. The only reasonable solution to this dilemma is that there is only time (entanglement), time dilation, bound and unbound forms of energy, or to simplify, only time and energy exist.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016
  14. Confused2 Registered Senior Member

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    Drive by post (again) re cosmictotem video also referenced by Danshaven (previous post)


    Chris Fields
    No signaling theorum:-
    22:40
    Two observers spacelike separated cannot use a shared a quantum system as a classical communication system.

    25:15
    because we have the no signaling theorum we know that a very large fraction of quantum mechanics follows ... parenthesis are not
    important ... and its almost all of special relativity ... you get special relativity for free.

    Heavy stuff. Is it just me or was I the only one left with absolutely no information about entanglement? Kinda waiting for him to say 'entanglement is a shared quantum system - but no use for communication. ' never came. Bath time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
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  15. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Energy can't become bound without quantum entanglement, and without entanglement and the bound forms of energy that accompany it, the concept of space (or geometry) has no meaning. Geometry works only for solids moving with respect to a solid road with only increased inertia in the roadbed itself to define a frame that is at rest, yet even a roadbed attached to something as massive as a black hole has no real anchor in space on which to attach the origin of a coordinate system. Only the centers of bound particles of energy individually or in the aggregate have geometric meaning of any import to doing physics.

    Time, on the other hand, always has an origin everywhere in the instant of now. It is the same instant at the centers of every particle of bound energy in the universe we refer to as matter. There is no need of an anchor for time, but there is also no way to traverse time in reverse to return to a point before propagating energy has left its origin behind, or rotated about it, wherever that origin might have been.

    In order to communicate via entanglement, bulk energy of some variety must still transfer. Even if particles or photons are entangled, a distance (light travel time) must be traversed by those particles before entanglement behavior like spin or polarization flips can be observed. In this manner, the entanglement range of the wave function has been extended, and there doesn't seem to be a practical limit to how far that might extend. There is however a much more serious limitation of how useful it is to send such information along a single trajectory. If a receiver is not directly in the path of such a stream of information when it arrives, the information is lost forever, and there would be no way to "communicate" an intention to transmit at speeds faster than that of light. No real point even discussing the idea further then, is there? In order to make full duplex use of entanglement communication system, both ends would need to be inhabited by beings precognizant enough to set it up, in which case, you don't really need a communication system in the first place. But I'm sure there will be keen interest in using such a system when we have a permanent colony on Mars.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
  16. Confused2 Registered Senior Member

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    From https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/speakers/christopher-a-fields-ph-d/
    I suspect the guy might be a bit 'alternative' for a thread in the physics section.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016

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