I didn't mean to imply "therefore". I just mean that if you can come up with the idea of numbers out of the nothingness, mathematics kind of just falls out of it. 1 + 1 = 2 because logics demands it. I wonder though if you could come up with a "fuzzy number system" that would jack that all up. I dunno. Hmm... yeah that works for me I think. It's all in how you play it. In your case, when 1+1=2.. is that math? In a sense it's just counting, but it's once removed from counting in that is an observation about counting. Hmmm.