Why do some people dislike/hate/oppose Christianity.

This is a bit off the topic of religion, but it illustrates my point. I am probably going to catch ridicule for this one, but...

One of my favorite movies is "Don Juan Demarco" (yes, the flop with Johnny Depp). What I like about the movie is that it is a radical example of how we can decide to look at the world how ever we choose to. We can let the mundane close our mind to the world or we can decide to look at it in a way that stays interesting.

Ah hah, I thought of one that fits with our discussion - "Pleasantville". I thought the movie was very thought provoking. To me it had religious implications that I really enjoyed thinking about.

If you have not seen either movie, I am not sure if I would recommend them. I enjoyed them, but I read way too deep into everything.

- KitNyx

 

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Re: Re: It is perception!

Originally posted by Brandon432003
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (KitNyx, I agree with you whole-heartedly but, sadly, some of those who "open their eyes" don't see what we see. They see what that WANT to see.)
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BRANDON: Medicine Woman, I haven't replied to your previous rebuttal, yet, I will soon. I had to jump in on this though...that is exactly the point I made about YOUR beliefs...I think you are seeing what you WANT to see, because it involves no effort! My beliefs involve sacrifice, who WANTS to do that? I'm interested in Truth whether it is easy to swallow or not...I could make up beliefs that allow me to do whatever I feel like also; that just wouldn't make them true, only self-centered.
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(I see what I see, because I feel it is right and true. You feel the same about your faith. As far as SACRIFICE goes, don't you think dedicating one's life for the purpose of carrying the One Spirit of God on Earth is a sacrifice? Not a bad sacrifice, mind you, but a sacrifice nonetheless? When we are not in bodily form but spirit form, One with God for eternity, don't you think that when we're born into this life that it is for the sole purpose of sacrifice? Our life was a gift from God, but it is a gift that is to be used for God. EFFORT? That depends on what you do with your life. Personally, I feel that I give efforts in my life carrying the One Spirit of God. It's not a vacation, you know! But, then, it's not that difficult. It depends on how you define effort. I define effort as exerting energy. In that respect, I guess I do show effort, but it's not like work to me. It's more of a mission.

When we came into being, into this human body, this was our SACRIFICE. There we were, in spiritual form with God, and then all of a sudden we are squeezed out into a cold, harsh world, where we don't know anyone, and the first thing that happens, they make you cry! If this isn't a sacrifice, I don't know what is. Of course, as humans, we have choices. We can sit back, sin a little bit if we want to, then ask for forgiveness, and we got it, and believe that Jesus died for us so we don't have to sacrifice anything because our efforts were already accomplished by a savior. How convenient! Since Jesus paid for everything, we're now on vacation and we don't have to give God back anything in return for what he gave us!

I'll take responsibility for my own life, my own body, and my own spirit, because God has given it to me to do its work. I don't go to pray in any church. My body is my temple. I worship God from inside, because that is where the kingdom of heaven is. I don't need fellowship with like minds, because I have the fellowship of the whole world. It's up to me. God gave me an intellect and wants me to use it! My mission is to tell the world what I've been telling all of you on sciforums. I don't have a quota of souls I need to witness to. All I need do is relay the message. You have the choice to believe it or not.)

 

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OK, now I am monopolizing this discussion, but I wanted to clarify something about my personal beliefs. I have no animosity toward religions themselves. That is just as valid a view of the universe as the one I have. My animosity is toward the religious people who push their beliefs on me. There are somethings I do not agree with such as the fact that children are taught it from day one, in effect a sort of programming. The nazis used the same sort of program (of course, even the US does this, for example having them say the pledge in school, not so much any more, but I had to when I was a kid). The main thing I do not like about many pious people is the fact that they attempt to force their morals on me. Some morals I agree should be enforced by law in order to keep a stable society (such as theft and murder), but I am frightened by the direction the US is going in. We have a policy of seperation of church and state, yet we have a President who invokes God in every speech. I am in the minority in the US as a non-Christian, and I think it is the governments job to protect my freedoms and insure they are not tread upon by the majority. However, the majority of law makers care more about being reelected then doing the "right" thing, so of course they are going to support the majority. Many Christians of this country believe it is their moral obligation to insure everyone follows their beliefs even those who do not agree with them. So, I am left having no choice, but to be tread upon. This is the source of my animosity; this being forced to conform to beliefs I do not have - not the religious beliefs themselves - is the source of my anger. I believe in religious freedom and I love nothing better than learn about various religions, but not by force.

- KitNyx

 

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Brandon,

You made a good point, everyone would love a world in which you do anything you want, and there are no consequences, but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lack of a choice. Christians say that God chooses from birth wether or not you will be saved, or damned. So the point is, as you said, you can be an athiest or a member of some other religion, be a totally righteous and true person and do many good works, are humble, kind, and devote your entire life to helping other people have better lives, without the thought that this will give you good standing with anyone, and unless you accept Jesus, your still going to hell. Does that sound like Justice to you? Now, honestly, I have nothing against you, or any good Christian for that matter, because, as a whole, you are good people, but the point that I'm trying to make is that the doctrines of Christianity AS A RELIGION are arrogant and unfair. I am not an athiest, I do believe that there is some sort of higher force controling everything, but I refuse to believe that you can be a good person, but because you don't accept some minor doctrine, your going to suffer horribly. The whole reason why all religions have a code of morality is that they see bad things happening to good people here on earth, so the idea is that any just God would not let them suffer in the afterlife, regardless of circumstance, yet that is exactly what Christians believe, and the point is that you don't even have the freedom to save yourself, God does it for you. There are many people that are total athiests, and yet are still moral people, because you don't need religion to be moral, all you need is a concience, and we all have that.

P.S.- The doctrine of Christs divinity wasn't accepted by the mainstream of Christianity until the middle of the 4th century A.D. At that time, Constantine was the Emperor of Rome and the first Christian Emperor at that. I'm not sure of the exact date, but he called together all of the bishops from all over the empire, gathered them in one of his palaces, surrounded them with soldiers, and demanded that they proclaim Christs divinity. There are many scholars that believe he did this after the old tradition of conferring divinity on Roman Emperors, because the idea is that, if the ruler is percieved as having some sort of divine mandate, then it is all the more easy to keep the populace in line. Needless to say, most of the bishops complied. I could look the information up for you, but I'm pretty sure of it's validity, that is, if you are willing to look it up. If you are always questioning your faith as you have so staunchly stated. (I don't mean to be malicious, that was just a little bit of goading to get you to look at it. I thank you, with the utmost respect that is earned by a man of faith.)

 

There's a good chance that you, as you perceive yourself, wouldn't even exist if not for the Dark Ages.

 

KitNyx,

I agree with some of what you say. I think when Christians act as a POLITICAL force, they often lose sight of the spirit of their beliefs. My view of politics is that it is a crooked system, so you get crooked people (not in EVERY instance, but many).
I don't think the majority of Christians "witness", as it is often called, because they "want to make everyone like them". Most of us sincerely believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Most want to pass this on in the spirit of love...we care enough to pass on the truth (as we see it, granted) so you may not miss out on the love of God for all eternity! As for me, I spent so many years spitting in the face of Christ, that I am extremely humbled that he patiently and lovingly persisted, giving me chance after chance. I pass on what I consider to be knowledge of the utmost importance because I want others to have the wonderful experience of knowing God. I also do it in service to Him.
I'm a huge believer in free will. I think it is the greatest gift God has given us. As I've said previously, I wouldn't MAKE you a Christian, even if I could. God thinks enough of you to allow you to make that choice, and I think it's beautiful.
I DO think Christians make some serious errors. I don't like the "fire and brimstone" approach to speaking of the Lord. I don't like the political activism of the "religious right". Maybe sometimes. I think we should lead by example, not by force. If God gives you a free will, I want you to have it.

Brandon

 

BETWEEN THE POINTS: Brandon, You made a good point, everyone would love a world in which you do anything you want, and there are no consequences, but that is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the lack of a choice. Christians say that God chooses from birth wether or not you will be saved, or damned.

BRANDON: I've heard that analysis of Christians before. If some Christians believe that God "chooses" whether we are saved or lost for us, I believe them to be WRONG.

BETWEEN THE POINTS: So the point is, as you said, you can be an athiest or a member of some other religion, be a totally righteous and true person and do many good works, are humble, kind, and devote your entire life to helping other people have better lives, without the thought that this will give you good standing with anyone, and unless you accept Jesus, your still going to hell. Does that sound like Justice to you?

BRANDON: I believe we are all born in sin and have been since the original fall of man. I believe Christ willingly died on the Cross to give us the opportunity to be reconciled to God. As I've stated before, "good works" are NOT what gets a person to Heaven. That is the basis for the Christian doctrine. I believe God to be the most fair judge you could ever have. I DON'T believe that a child who is not old enough to understand or make the choice to receive Christ would go to Hell. I believe that those who haven't heard the Gospel and had an opportunity to respond to it will be judged fairly by Christ, according to their lives. Works may come into play here, I don't claim to "know". But you and I are a different story; we have heard, we DO have the opportunity to respond, to make the right choice. I think it is impossible without submission and humility. I think you must be WILLING to accept truth even if it is not pleasant or not what you WANT to hear. I went through this for so long, and so intensely and I never understood until I finally asked God to reveal the truth to me with TOTAL SINCERITY. Once I truly gave up my pride and my selfishness long enough to listen, it was like, *CLICK* and I understood. That is the greatest thing that has ever happened to me.

BETWEEN THE POINTS: Now, honestly, I have nothing against you, or any good Christian for that matter, because, as a whole, you are good people, but the point that I'm trying to make is that the doctrines of Christianity AS A RELIGION are arrogant and unfair.

BRANDON: I can't speak for anyone but myself and what I believe about Jesus Christ. If you're truly interested in understanding, I suggest you sincerely pray for truth to be revealed to you, even if it is difficult to hear. Actually read the words of Jesus. I find Him to be the antithesis of arrogance and unfairness.

BETWEEN THE POINTS: I am not an athiest, I do believe that there is some sort of higher force controling everything, but I refuse to believe that you can be a good person, but because you don't accept some minor doctrine, your going to suffer horribly.

BRANDON: I have two points here. First, you REFUSE to believe, so there is no opportunity for you to do so. You may conclude differently than I do, but I REFUSED for a long time as well. It wasn't until I put my own will aside, let go of my pride, etc., that the Light clicked on. Second, I would hardly call the Gospel of Christ a "minor doctrine", even if you don't believe in it.

BETWEEN THE POINTS: The whole reason why all religions have a code of morality is that they see bad things happening to good people here on earth, so the idea is that any just God would not let them suffer in the afterlife, regardless of circumstance, yet that is exactly what Christians believe, and the point is that you don't even have the freedom to save yourself, God does it for you.

BRANDON: You do have the freedom to ALLOW God to save you, by your free choice. You definitely don't have the freedom to "save yourself". If you could save yourself, why not save yourself from physical death? That would be less of a task than conquering the afterlife! We are merely human.

BETWEEN THE POINTS: There are many people that are total athiests, and yet are still moral people, because you don't need religion to be moral, all you need is a concience, and we all have that.

BRANDON: I agree; I was one of them. However, I would ask you, where does this "moral conscience" come from? I think we ALL have it, although some people choose to ignore it. I think we have knowledge of God already with us from before the fall of man. THAT's what I think is fair and just about you having to make the decision to RETURN TO HIM. You already have the instinct within you, but you have to humble yourself and submit your pride, or the instinct will never be realized.

BETWEEN THE POINTS: P.S.- The doctrine of Christs divinity wasn't accepted by the mainstream of Christianity until the middle of the 4th century A.D. At that time, Constantine was the Emperor of Rome and the first Christian Emperor at that. I'm not sure of the exact date, but he called together all of the bishops from all over the empire, gathered them in one of his palaces, surrounded them with soldiers, and demanded that they proclaim Christs divinity. There are many scholars that believe he did this after the old tradition of conferring divinity on Roman Emperors, because the idea is that, if the ruler is percieved as having some sort of divine mandate, then it is all the more easy to keep the populace in line. Needless to say, most of the bishops complied. I could look the information up for you, but I'm pretty sure of it's validity, that is, if you are willing to look it up. If you are always questioning your faith as you have so staunchly stated. (I don't mean to be malicious, that was just a little bit of goading to get you to look at it. I thank you, with the utmost respect that is earned by a man of faith.)

BRANDON: It doesn't matter to me when or why the "mainstream" accepted Christ's divinity. I believe what he did and said to be true, whether you or anyone else throughout history accepts / accepted it wouldn't nullify it as the truth! What the disciples had to say about Jesus Christ and his divinity was about AD 35 to AD 90, so whether or not it took mainstream Rome a few hundred years longer to accept it means nothing to me. I'm not trying to be cocky here, but again, I don't follow a church or a pastor or a "movement", I follow Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your sincere comments, I really do appreciate them. You don't come off malicious at all, just as someone who disagrees with me. It's getting difficult though, I think everyone wants a shot at me! I may have to quit my job in order to reply to everyone.

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Peace.

Brandon

 

I'm sorry to come off as attacking Christianity in some way, but do you ever worry sometimes that maybe, some where down the line, someone way up in the church (Yes, the church, because up until about 1510, that's all there was in Christianity) changed the bible itself to suit some personal agenda? Does that thought ever cross your mind. Honestly, it's entirely possible. They did it in 1963 by taking out all mention of the war in heaven in genesis, does it ever worry you that they might have done it before the reformation? Do you ever wonder if the text that your reading is false, or, maybe altered in some fundumental way from what the apostles originally wrote?

And I wouldn't doubt that Jesus was the total antithesis of arrogance and unfairness. I believe he was a wonderful person. And I have read much of the bible, the only thing I doubt about Jesus is his divinity.

Thank YOU for your thoughts. I love a good debate and I enjoy talking to someone rational that really holds true to their convictions. With Respect,

BetweenThePoints

 

I may eventually respond to your post specifically brandon, but I don't feel much like it at the moment because this argument is somewhat tiresome. Instead I'll just do a driveby:

For you theists: Read 'hitchhikers guide to the galaxy'. There is a part in it where he talks about the ultimate mind-blowing torture. I don't remember why one would recieve it, but I do remember what it was: They put the universe inside your head with an arrow pointing to "you are here". It was utterly numbing due to scope. Have you really considered the scope? I mean really really really? Have you pondered for months on the detail of what I described?

Go ahead, try it for me now.

You can do it.

No actually you can't because you can keep on trying forever, filing more and more into your mind but you'll still not even be close to done.

I honestly don't see how one might really have a good idea of how immense this universe is and then think "well, I've got an explanation, look right here in the BIBLE". How on earth could a book written by a bunch of primates on a random rock around a random sun have anything to do with something of a scope that has only been properly fathomed in the last few hundred years? How could it be anything more than a means by which to tame the goddamned natives? They want answers and someone MUST give them up or there will be chaos - lack of control.

Retort as you must, but christianity is based on a random fucking book on a random fucking planet in a random galaxy blah blah blah. It just happens to be the one YOU are on. Retard yourself as you must, but uh... well, whatever.

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Believe what you must.

 

Everyone - Thank you for not letting this discussion degrade to the level of most deist vs. non-deist conversations.

Brandon - I understand that Christians believe they are helping me when the push their morals on me, but you must remember, I do not believe in the same morals. I am not necessarily a non-deist, but I definitely do not believe in a personal God. I can not believe in the existance of a God that really cares what we do.

Wesmorris - I bet you are a character in real life...

- KitNyx