Why do some people dislike/hate/oppose Christianity.

okok, i read it all...

good point. i like it. zealots do suck. (not as fast as zerglings, but can so some major dmg with a double toss rush.)

all religions are good. choose one and don't be obsessed with it. i hate it when people overanalyze.

overall, i think religion is outdated. we no longer need it. we don't kill each other over bread or money anymore (at least not physically), and all the order that religion used to bring can now be achieved without it.

you can be a good christian/muslim/jew and not beieve in G-d I think... however that makes sense

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I can appreciate your sarcasm, Wes, but it's obviously self-serving. I can only imagine you beaming with pride after finishing that post, maybe a "Tiger Woods fist pump" as well? I remember when that kind of thing felt good to me also. Since you want to latch onto this "I'm more evolved" position that improves your self-esteem, I think it's important to point out that your total reliance on "reason" and "intellect" alone ARE your psychological dependency, much as you view religion to be mine. I was speaking of humility as the greater asset, however. Humility, as opposed to intellect, has to be ATTAINED, not inborn.
You can disagree with me all you want; debates are healthy. Just don't expect me to think you're more evolved when you voice your disagreement with malevolence...surely malevolence is for the unevolved, no?
Let's assume my beliefs ARE false in the end. Have I hurt myself in some way, or other people, for that matter? Quite the opposite. So enough of the "move on to being a reasonable human" stuff...I already moved on. Don't confuse faith with blind faith.

Brandon

 

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/I can appreciate your sarcasm, Wes

I don't think you can, liar.

/but it's obviously self-serving.

how is that obvious?

/I can only imagine you beaming with pride after finishing that post, maybe a "Tiger Woods fist pump" as well? I remember when that kind of thing felt good to me also.

Dude, I'm not a child. I thought it was somewhat clever but I'm not high fiving myself over it.

/Since you want to latch onto this "I'm more evolved" position that improves your self-esteem,

Uhm, you're quite the presumptuous little prick aren't you? Did I mention evolution? I mean to tell you you're all fucked up yeah, but you have the potential not to be. You're just too emotionally retarded to realize it (apparently).

/.I think it's important to point out that your total reliance on "reason" and "intellect" alone ARE your psychological dependency, much as you view religion to be mine.

Uhm... that doesn't make sense. If I stop thinking I'm not conscious. So it's not a dependency. It's an is.

Truth vs. fiction. You choose fiction. That's fine except for that you're stupid enough to come here, talk shit like everyone should learn from the story of your conversion to retardation and pretend that you are somehow involved in a quest for truth. To that I say: Ick. If you involve yourself with an organized religion, you have stopped your search for truth and started a search for emotional consolation and social acceptance. That's fine, but it makes you into a zombifie carrier of a retarded meme that is about as far from truth as one can get. Have fun with all that.

/I was speaking of humility as the greater asset, however.

LOL. Hehe, I've got plenty of humility. What would you know about my humility. Just because I don't show it to YOU doesn't mean it isn't present. You're talking stupid shit. My function is to call you out if I realize that is happening. I realized it, I called you out. Ultimately, it will likely have no effect on you because you're invested in your retardation. I enjoy the mental excercise and the opportunity to explore so... I retort.

Oh, and you think humility as a greater asset than intellect? Well, you don't play your own game very well it doesn't seem.

/Humility, as opposed to intellect, has to be ATTAINED, not inborn.
You can disagree with me all you want; debates are healthy.

I'm dying for your approval so thanks.

/ Just don't expect me to think you're more evolved when you voice your disagreement with malevolence...surely malevolence is for the unevolved, no?

No, violence is for the un-evolved. malevolence CAN serve as a proper defense mechanism for retarded folks who would fill one's head with their brand of retardation. You think my reponse is malevolent? *shrug* As you wish.

/Let's assume my beliefs ARE false in the end.

Way ahead of you.

/Have I hurt myself in some way, or other people, for that matter?

Yes.

/Quite the opposite.

Wrong. (but of course, debatable)

/So enough of the "move on to being a reasonable human" stuff...I already moved on.

Who do you think you are to tell me "enough of this" when I've said it to you once? Yeah, you moved on to retardation. That's very helpful to the species. Thanks for your shallow analysis.

/Don't confuse faith with blind faith.

Why would you think I did? If you are a christian, you indulge in blind faith. I have faith in many things. Most fundamentally, reason.

 

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Xianity devoured another soul.

Originally posted by Brandon432003
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(Answer to wesmorris--Since you want to latch onto this "I'm more evolved" position that improves your self-esteem, I think it's important to point out that your total reliance on "reason" and "intellect" alone ARE your psychological dependency, much as you view religion to be mine.
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(First off, I want to welcome you to sciforums, Brandon. Since you've seen both sides of the ticket, and you made a learned decision to return to Xianity, I'll try and go easy on ya. Briefly, my story is the opposite. I went from Xianity to where I am now--more of a humanist and realist. I don't believe in fairy tales, but I do believe in the rationality of quantum physics. Secondly, I don't think wesmorris' intention was to come from "a more evolved position" per se. I don't see his position as a "holier than thou" stance. He speaks from reason and intellect which is in NO WAY a psychological dependency. Quite the contrary, the psychological dependency is what religions require!)
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I was speaking of humility as the greater asset, however. Humility, as opposed to intellect, has to be ATTAINED, not inborn.
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(Brandon, humility is a great asset, but it can be a dangerous one. Humility is a learned trait. It is also a trait that can endanger the spirit. Humility is a trait taught by all religions. That way, they can keep the humble under their thumbs. So being humble is not always in every case the best way to be. Humility interferes with the intellect and stifles it. This is what religions want--humble, weak, subserviant people who don't utilize or show their intellects.)
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You can disagree with me all you want; debates are healthy. Just don't expect me to think you're more evolved when you voice your disagreement with malevolence...surely malevolence is for the unevolved, no?
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(Let's get off the word "evolved." As the human race, we are evolved. There may be a few individuals who seem to be more evolved than the rest of us--Stephen Hawkings, Carl Sagan, Isaac Isimov, for example, in our generation. You said you had a sense of humor, so try to utilize that instead of a defensive position. There is less malevolence found on this website than in religions. Since this is my first reply to you, I won't go into the bloody, malevolent history of Xianity just now.)
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Let's assume my beliefs ARE false in the end. Have I hurt myself in some way, or other people, for that matter? Quite the opposite. So enough of the "move on to being a reasonable human" stuff...I already moved on. Don't confuse faith with blind faith.
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(Yes, let's assume your beliefs are false in the end. You HAVE hurt yourself by lying to yourself. You HAVE hurt others by propagating those lies. What's the value of good works if you believe and propagate lies? It is the innate responsibility of the human race to do good works. That's why we're here. There's no heaven out there to go to for doing good works. It's right HERE! You may have moved on...but you've moved BACKWARD! You must feel comfort being a part of the bloody, malevolent history of Xianity. Are you proud of that history? How could you want your name (much less soul) to be associated with something so evil? Your faith in God is misdirected. Man-made religions require "blind faith." There is no way that God, creator of the universe, a pure positive force of energy within the human race (and the universe) would want anyone to limit their faith to one man-made religion. God is so much greater than that! In the end, you will realize that only YOU are responsible for your salvation. In the end, all those people you have witnessed to will see that their is no salvation for them either, and YOU will be reponsible for leading them in the wrong direction! There is only One Spirit--the Spirit of God--that lives within all creation but moves through the human race to do God's work. Don't limit yourself! Don't limit your soul. You sound like an intelligent person. I'm glad you are here on sciforums religion forum. This is a wonderful place to learn the truth. I'm glad you're with us! Welcome, again!)

 

Re: Xianity devoured another soul.

 

* LIAR? I love sarcasm! It's my favorite form of humor, so when I say I can appreciate yours, I mean exactly that.

Okay then.

/I don't have to agree with your point to appreciate the sarcasm, Wes.

Didn't say you did. Call me crazy but I sensed a little passive aggression in your commentary. Hence my INTUITION told me you're a liar. I've been wrong about that before. Pardon.

/But here you go again, with the "malevolence" I was speaking of. You can't disagree with me without getting angry or resentful over it?

Hehe, what you call malevolence I call exhaustion. I've been through this conversation countless times with countless morons and a handfull of smarties. I've become a bit jaded.

* It's obvious by the tone of your reply. You seem to view this as a chance for "one-uppance". As if trying to belittle someone else makes your point any more truthful?

Hehe.. NO, you're wrong man. I'm already one up, I don't have to prove it but as I said I enjoy exploring this junk. I don't have to try to belittle you. I honestly don't want you belittled. I don't care if you're large or small. I care if you're truthfull, earnest, bright and reasonable.

* Maybe that was too presumptuous because I'm not quoting you directly, but are you telling me that you don't view our differences this way?

That is correct. I view our differences and you are a christian and that I think that is retarded. End of story. I don't hate you nor like you nor anything (since I don't know you) besides think that the part of you that thinks "christianity (or any religion) is a good idea!", is a fucking emotionally needy moron per my statement above. That doesn't even necessarily speak to your personality. I really dig some christians except that I think that part of them is stupid.

/You state that I'm "emotionally retarded". Does this not imply that you think you are above that (in other words, "more evolved")?

Yes, that does not mean I'm above you. I'm quite flawed in areas ass well. I'd hope you'd do me the favor of straightening me out if you saw that I was being a moron. I tend to offer the same favor. So I say "you're being a moron regarding your fudamental philosophical assertions, I can tell you why but I've been through this enough times to know that well, I don't think it's ever worked and it's not because I haven't been clear enough". I can be quite insightful and eloquent, but it doesn't mean shit if you're not willing to listen, which inherently christians are not, know what I mean? (why listen if you already know the answer?)

/I do find it humorous though, that I, the emotionally retarded one, haven't been as quick to anger as you seem to be.

Hehe, you're simply wrong. I'm not mad. I use harsh language becaues I'm a gruff character. I find it entertaining and well, it's hard to explain but it works for me.

/As if calling me names is emotionally MATURE? Please.

Calling people names is no indicator of emotional maturity, but since you said please... hey fucker, get your shit together and expand your understanding you miserable cockbite piece of shit. That felt good, thanks.

You know, part of being human is venting your frustrations as they happen, such that they do not pile up. To quote the master: "Serenity now, insanity later." Hehe, if you find this contrary to your understanding of emotional maturity, I'd guess you don't have kids.

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* I don't follow you here. I'm not saying you should stop thinking, I'm saying that there is a balance, Wes. Between reason and intuition; the mind and the heart.

The problem is you've got the issues all jacked up. How is it that you assume I don't trust my intuition or have a heart? That simply doesn't have anything to do with it. I think that if you let your heart and intuition take over when it comes to issues of TRUTH, then you're an idiot. Heart and intuition are to help you arrive at theories or hypotheticals. Your mind, or reason is the only way to assert truth. Otherwise you're, well... talking stupid shit (unless you happen to get lucky).

/I think it's important for all of us not to rely too heavily on either one.

See above.

* You can't prove it's fiction anymore than I can prove it's the truth!

If it's not provable, it's fiction. Pretty simple. The bible is crap, the idea of god is moot. I know all the in-betweens and can argue a thousand different reasons as to why that is so, but instead I'll just refer you to my history of posts. My most recent endeavors have been with okinrus, jcarl and marcAC.

/As I stated in my original post, I'm just putting my thoughts out there because as a Christian, I want some fair representation, not the ignorant generalizations that filled the pages of this topic.

Fair representation? I'm not sure what you mean. As a christian, you are the fucking majority. You're not satisfied with that? What more would you take?

/I'm NOT telling you what to believe, Wes, that's your responsibility, and it's a huge one.

As a christian you are bound to tell me what to believe.. I mean, if you really believe.

/Believe me, I used to be as vindictive and angry toward religion and Christianity as you seem to be.

I'm not angry but I do get that way from time to time. It's like crashing your head into a brick wall over and over. Most of you christians are so sucked into your belief system that you simply cannot see that you're in it. Correction, most of the christians I've encountered via sciforums.

/I have a different perspective now, and I realize that many of the things I used to say about Christians and Christianity were out of ignorance; I didn't know any better because I didn't care to try to.

Hehe, I'm not speaking from ignorance. I'm speaking from intellect and experience.

* My mistake; you're teeming with humility. Read that paragraph again.

Did you not read the part where I told you I have no humility toward you? I have humility when it's fitting to do so. I do not see this as that time.

* I do think humility is the greater asset. I'm not the most humble person on the planet, Wes, it's something I work at. I still have a long way to go.

As you wish, but I feel differently. I think humility has it's place, but intellect and a sense of humor is of far more value to me.

* If your beliefs (or lack of) are sound, you shouldn't need the "bells and whistles" approach, Wes.

Hehe, it is intended to weed out the meek. It occasionally works.

/If I'm an "emotional retard", it will be plain as day to all who read this.

No true. Not everyone has as clear of an understanding of the needs the christianity preys upon as I do.

/They won't need you point it out every time you get frustrated.

But if I'm frustrated I'm likely to vent it. If you can't handle it I'd suggest you move out of the way.

* Seriously, that's pretty funny...I don't agree with you, but it's still good humor.

Obviously.

/Have I hurt myself in some way, or other people, for that matter?

Yes.

/Quite the opposite.

Wrong. (but of course, debatable)

* You made the actual statement once, but it's the entire point of your argument: That I have succumbed to superstition; suspended my reason, given in to the "dumb masses". That in order to really be free, to grow and mature, I need to rid myself of these silly beliefs.

Hmm, well what I mean is that if you're on a search for truth, you're on the wrong path. You can be a christian and be emotionally mature, my bad if I stated otherwise.

I need to expound upon that but simply don't have time at the moment.

/And as I told you before, I've been through all of those thoughts many times over. Don't think you're giving me anything new, Wes.

Yeah that's humble. I've been over it a few times as well you might notice.

* No, blind faith would mean that I have never questioned anything that I believe. I've done it to death.

No blind faith is when you STOP questioning it, which you have to in order to assert your faith in the lord via your savior jesus christ. Dig?

/Now having questioned, and yes, still questioning

Then you're not a very good christian.

/I have skipped blind faith.

Pardon, but I have a hard time buying that from a christian.

/The notion that anyone who is a Christian is "faithfully blind" is ridiculous.

No it isn't. If you want to make the claim, illustrate your reasoning. The bible has no relevance on a god or gods and there is no method by which to determine the property of a god or gods or that either might exists. This yet you claim to be a christian free of blind faith.

/Believe me, there are Christians all over the world who are much more intelligent than you or I...

You're making assertions you can't back up. How do you know there is anyone smarter than me?

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Seriously though, you have no footing, you're talking irrelavent smack. For instance, have you ever noticed that intellegence is generally focused? In other words, smart fuckers are usually particularly smart regarding a 'mode' of thinking like math or english or sports analysis or whatever. As such, how is your assertion even remotely relevant?

 

WES: Hehe, what you call malevolence I call exhaustion. I've been through this conversation countless times with countless morons and a handfull of smarties. I've become a bit jaded.

BRANDON: Or malevolence as a result of exhaustion, but I know what you mean. I experienced it on your side of the coin, and I'm experiencing it on my side as well. I'm fully aware that no argument I make will change your perspective...I just like to expound a bit to try to counter the generalizations made toward me (as a Christian); i.e. the mindless sheep angle...


WES: Hehe.. NO, you're wrong man. I'm already one up, I don't have to prove it but as I said I enjoy exploring this junk. I don't have to try to belittle you. I honestly don't want you belittled. I don't care if you're large or small. I care if you're truthfull, earnest, bright and reasonable.

BRANDON: Fair enough, and it would be hypocritical of me to pretend not to understand your arguments at all, because I used to make them (not that they really BELONG to either of us). That's what I want to get across, is that although we ended up with different conclusions, I DID go through the process you encourage...I became a Christian in my own home by myself, after tons of questions, tons of objective reading, years of reason. As for whether I'm truthful, earnest, bright and reasonable...I would like to think so, but wouldn't we all like to think the best of ourselves? I just hope you don't make the assumption that because I am a Christian, that I can no longer be any of those things. That would be as ridiculous as me saying that anyone who isn't a Christian can't be a morally good person....it's just not true.


WES: Yes, that does not mean I'm above you. I'm quite flawed in areas ass well. I'd hope you'd do me the favor of straightening me out if you saw that I was being a moron. I tend to offer the same favor. So I say "you're being a moron regarding your fudamental philosophical assertions, I can tell you why but I've been through this enough times to know that well, I don't think it's ever worked and it's not because I haven't been clear enough". I can be quite insightful and eloquent, but it doesn't mean shit if you're not willing to listen, which inherently christians are not, know what I mean? (why listen if you already know the answer?)

BRANDON: Yeah, these discussions aren't going to change any minds, per se. I view it as both of us planting seeds. If there is any change to be made, it would be much later, but yes, it's extremely doubtful. Who can change during the immediate discussion, when they are on the defensive, as we both are? I'm more interested in giving a different portrayal of my side of the coin, since I used to make unfair generalizations of Christians before I became one.


WES: Calling people names is no indicator of emotional maturity, but since you said please... hey fucker, get your shit together and expand your understanding you miserable cockbite piece of shit. That felt good, thanks.

BRANDON: I beg to differ. When you're a grown man and can't have a civilized debate without resorting to the tactics of a child, I would call that "emotional immaturity".


WES: You know, part of being human is venting your frustrations as they happen, such that they do not pile up. To quote the master: "Serenity now, insanity later." Hehe, if you find this contrary to your understanding of emotional maturity, I'd guess you don't have kids.

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BRANDON: So the only way to deal with anger is to blow up? I don't agree with that at all...maybe you've let your kids teach you instead of vice-versa.

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WES: The problem is you've got the issues all jacked up. How is it that you assume I don't trust my intuition or have a heart? That simply doesn't have anything to do with it. I think that if you let your heart and intuition take over when it comes to issues of TRUTH, then you're an idiot. Heart and intuition are to help you arrive at theories or hypotheticals. Your mind, or reason is the only way to assert truth. Otherwise you're, well... talking stupid shit (unless you happen to get lucky).

BRANDON: I'm saying that you can analyze things to death, and often never get anywhere. I think it's important to find a balance between the two.


WES: If it's not provable, it's fiction. Pretty simple. The bible is crap, the idea of god is moot. I know all the in-betweens and can argue a thousand different reasons as to why that is so, but instead I'll just refer you to my history of posts. My most recent endeavors have been with okinrus, jcarl and marcAC.

BRANDON: If it's not provable, it's fiction? There are many things that I'll bet you hold to be true that haven't been "proven". You can have evidence for something without conclusive proof. How many things in the scientific world have been "proven" only to be "disproven" later? Evolution has never been proven either (there is alot of evidence for microevolution, but not much for macroevolution), but I'll bet (and I could be wrong) that you believe in it, no?


WES: Fair representation? I'm not sure what you mean. As a christian, you are the fucking majority. You're not satisfied with that? What more would you take?

BRANDON: I mean fair representation in the fact that even though I am a singular person who is part of a group, generalizations are made on the term Christian, as if I can't be any different than my Christian brother or sister. Mainly the generalization that we are all "blind sheep" who have neglected to ever question our own beliefs, as if I was converted the first time I heard the Gospel...and technically, I think that the Muslim religion is the majority worldwide. I'm certainly the minority on this message board!


WES: As a christian you are bound to tell me what to believe.. I mean, if you really believe.

BRANDON: Correction: I'm bound to tell you what I BELIEVE. I cannot tell you what TO believe. Well, I COULD, but it wouldn't make you believe it! Like I said, that's your responsibility, and I wouldn't have it any other way, Wes. I wouldn't MAKE you a Christian if I could. It's not real unless it comes from inside, you know? I believe the beauty in the "system" is that of free choice.


WES: I'm not angry but I do get that way from time to time. It's like crashing your head into a brick wall over and over. Most of you christians are so sucked into your belief system that you simply cannot see that you're in it. Correction, most of the christians I've encountered via sciforums.

BRANDON: As I said above, I'm no stranger to the frustration of this topic, from either side of the argument. It's no different on this side of things, Wes. Let's be honest, you're not any more objective about Christianity than I am, at this point. Surely we can agree on that. You have completely ruled it out. In that sense, you are no different in being "stuck in your own belief system".


WES: Hehe, I'm not speaking from ignorance. I'm speaking from intellect and experience.

BRANDON: Not true. You may be speaking from intellect (although that and ONLY that, which I feel is just as dangerous as speaking from only "belief"), but you couldn't be speaking from experience, because you've never been a Christian (I could be wrong about this, but it doesn't seem to be the case. If so, were you as an adult?) The ignorance I'm talking about is in the labelling of each and every Christian as being without reason and intellect on the issue. The ignorance of calling all faith "blind faith".


BRANDON (previous post): If your beliefs (or lack of) are sound, you shouldn't need the "bells and whistles" approach, Wes.

WEST: Hehe, it is intended to weed out the meek. It occasionally works.

BRANDON: I don't think you're being honest with me or yourself here. I think you like the extra "mmmpfff" that you think your negative approach makes. I'm saying that your argument itself should suffice.

BRANDON (previous post): If I'm an "emotional retard", it will be plain as day to all who read this.

WES: No true. Not everyone has as clear of an understanding of the needs the christianity preys upon as I do.

BRANDON: Don't short-change everyone else. Besides, intellectualism (or pseudo-intellectualism maybe) preys on certain needs as well. It can be food for low self-esteem. See, I can make unfair generalizations just as easily as you.



BRANDON (previous post): You made the actual statement once, but it's the entire point of your argument: That I have succumbed to superstition; suspended my reason, given in to the "dumb masses". That in order to really be free, to grow and mature, I need to rid myself of these silly beliefs.

WES: Hmm, well what I mean is that if you're on a search for truth, you're on the wrong path. You can be a christian and be emotionally mature, my bad if I stated otherwise.

I need to expound upon that but simply don't have time at the moment.

BRANDON: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that once I arrive at any given verdict ABOUT the truth, I have missed it entirely. If that were the case, then TRUTH as you speak of it is entirely unattainable! Not to mention that if you can say I'm on the wrong path, then you must have already found the real TRUTH. Otherwise, how would you know what the "wrong path" is?

BRANDON: And as I told you before, I've been through all of those thoughts many times over. Don't think you're giving me anything new, Wes.

WES: Yeah that's humble. I've been over it a few times as well you might notice.

BRANDON: Sorry if it was cocky, I didn't mean it that way. Just trying to get through the stereotype that I think you've assigned to me.


BRANDON (previous post): No, blind faith would mean that I have never questioned anything that I believe. I've done it to death.

WES: No blind faith is when you STOP questioning it, which you have to in order to assert your faith in the lord via your savior jesus christ. Dig?

BRANDON: We have a different definition of blind faith. "Blind" would indicate that I averted my eyes to my deep, burning questions instead of taking a hard look at them. Like I just did what I was told. That couldn't be further from the truth. As I stated before, I spent years doing just that. What I have now, because of all that time spent in question, is real FAITH, based on a decision of my own free will. There is a huge difference.

BRANDON (previous post): Now having questioned, and yes, still questioning

WES: Then you're not a very good christian.

BRANDON: Let me clarify. What I mean is that I don't have an answer for every single little question that pops into my head, Wes. That doesn't mean I question the existence of God or his dominion...it means I have a lot to learn, and always will. I think it's a little arrogant for you to claim to know what a good Christian is, since you deny Christianity completely.


BRANDON (previous post): I have skipped blind faith.

WES: Pardon, but I have a hard time buying that from a christian.

BRANDON: That's because of your pre-conveived idea of what a Christian "has to be". Generalization.


BRANDON (previous post): The notion that anyone who is a Christian is "faithfully blind" is ridiculous.

WES: No it isn't. If you want to make the claim, illustrate your reasoning. The bible has no relevance on a god or gods and there is no method by which to determine the property of a god or gods or that either might exists. This yet you claim to be a christian free of blind faith.

BRANDON: My reasoning is illustrated above in the difference between faith and blind faith. You seem to see no difference. You haven't had a chance to answer me yet about your beliefs on evolution, but since there is not complete proof of the theory, is anyone who believes in it faithfully blind?


BRANDON (previous post): Believe me, there are Christians all over the world who are much more intelligent than you or I...

WES: You're making assertions you can't back up. How do you know there is anyone smarter than me?

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Seriously though, you have no footing, you're talking irrelavent smack.

BRANDON: I find it very relevant. It means that if intellect and reason were the key to finding the ultimate TRUTH, you would be far behind many people whom you belittle. That's why I like to make the point about a good dose of humility.


WES: For instance, have you ever noticed that intellegence is generally focused? In other words, smart fuckers are usually particularly smart regarding a 'mode' of thinking like math or english or sports analysis or whatever. As such, how is your assertion even remotely relevant?

BRANDON: I agree very much with your first couple of quotes. My assertion is relevant because you're making innate, genetic features the keys to ultimate truths. As if only the most intelligent are capable of discovery of TRUTH. I'm not discounting the intellect or reason to be very important, just not at the expense of everything else. Balance.


BRANDON: I haven't really asked you, Wes. What are your beliefs? Are you an atheist? Universalist? Or do you think that the TRUTH we're speaking of is unattainable? From things you've said, my guess would be atheist, but I would like to hear it from you. Don't worry, just because you might fall under a "category", doesn't mean you aren't an individual!


Brandon

 

Re: Re: Xianity devoured another soul.

Originally posted by Brandon432003
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* For the record, I feel that I've come full circle. I was a Christian as a youth. By the time I reached my early twenties, I had become disillusioned with not only Christianity, but religion as a whole. I threw my childhood Bible in the trashcan, to be totally honest with you. I called myself an atheist for a while, then an agnostic for quite a while as well. As for Wes, it's going to get extremely tedious if I have to discuss Wes with Wes, and Wes with you. I find it ironic that you feel that I'm totally dependent on religion, but for you or Wes to rely totally on reason is not a dependency! For one thing, you are wrong; I do rely on reason and intellect, but more importantly, I rely on God. I don't think reason and intellect are going to help me after death, just during this lifetime. I feel that God will help me in ALL things. But hey, that's just me...I certainly wish you no ill will if you believe to the contrary.
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(I'll try to make my reply as brief as possible. I'm glad to see that you did some independent thinking in your life. I only commented about Wes because of your posting to/from him. Normally, I don't do that. I have plenty to say on my own! Relying totally on reason depends on how you perceive that reason. You may think I rely only on reason, but I rely on the Spirit of God and how I perceive God to exist. Religion cannot explain my perception of God, but physics can. Reason and intellect WON'T help you after death, just during your lifetime, you are correct in this statement--or at least we agree.)
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* That sounds like conspiracy phobia to me. As if all religions got together and said, "Let's create the idea of humility so we can oppress the masses for years to come." If you mean that one can become so humble as to be a doormat, to never question anything, then I agree. But that's not at all the type of or extent of, humility that I am talking about. Intellect is great, but let's not overemphasize it, OK? How many people have you either known or known about who were INCREDIBLY smart, but also extremely self-destructive, or destructive to others and society as a whole? So let's not try to worship intellect as the potential savior of society or even the individual. It's one piece of the puzzle.
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(I'm not in to conspiracy phobias. It's not a conspiracy, it's mind control plain and simple. There's no fault in being humble, but there is a problem when one gives up oneself for a higher power (or drugs, alcohol, gambling, shopping, hand-washing, hair-pulling, anorexia, etc.). I see Xians as having an addiction. They're codependent with their religion. Intellect is NOT the savior of society, I've never said that. I believe salvation is not necessary. The myth of salvation was created by Saul/Paul. The simple fact that you are alive and well on Planet Earth tells me that THIS life is your SALVATION, and that because you're here living and breathing, you have everlasting life. There is no death to the spirit. There is only death to the body. I like to call the body and Earthsuit. We only wear it while we're here. When we're ready to discard it, we shed the body as we transcend physical life to eternal life. There is only One Spirit, and that is the One Spirit of God. As opposed to reincarnation, one soul per body, etc., there is only the One Spirit of God which we all share. There is no death to the soul, we carry it in our Earthsuit, and when we shed our Earthsuit, the portion of the soul we carried simply returns the the source of the One Spirit of God.)
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You can disagree with me all you want; debates are healthy. Just don't expect me to think you're more evolved when you voice your disagreement with malevolence...surely malevolence is for the unevolved, no?
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(I never think I'm more evolved than the next human being. There are definitely more intelligent people out there, and there are definitely dumber people out there. As far as IQs go, I'm probably above average. As far as the spirit goes, that is my only purpose here. That is your only purpose here, too.)
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* Why would (my beliefs) hurt me? What would it cost me? I would die having lived a very full life, with a positive outlook on myself and others. Hopefully, I would have avoided many ills that might befall me if I had no morals. Besides, just like me, you don't KNOW FOR CERTAIN what is a lie and what is truth, especially about the existence / nonexistence of an afterlife! Propagating lies? I don't view them as lies, and only upon my death will I know for sure. The same goes for you. Do you think I'm out on the streetcorner all day proclaiming impending judgment to everyone that goes by? I'm saying these things on a discussion board under the topic of RELIGION. I think that's pretty fair.
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(Your religious beliefs in this life, fortunately, will not hurt you in the afterlife, but you will see when you get there that your religious beliefs were wrong. Ultimately, we all have eternal life. That is the gift that we have as human beings. Man-made religions in their own ways tried to teach this to their believers, but they just got it wrong. Hurting others? Ultimately, it won't really hurt them either. When they cross-over, they'll see what the truth is, too. My problem with it is that I wish they knew the truth BEFORE they shed their Earthsuit. It's a beautiful truth. It's something no one can take away from you. It's your God-given gift. Well, I'm really glad to see that you're not a Xian out there trying to scorch the Earth with rapture stories.)
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* First off, you're misguided if you think I believe "good works" get me to heaven. If that were the case, we would all be out of luck. Good works are possible with or without salvation. I did good works when I was an atheist.
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(This is true. Good works is "expected" of us since we are the vessel that carries the One Spirit of God across the face of the Earth. It's our duty and obligation.)
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* I used to think of it as backward, also.I understand where you're coming from (more than you realize), I just don't feel the same way anymore. FURTHERMORE...I can't believe the logic you're putting out there. Because Christians have participated in wars, then Christianity is false? If that were the case, EVERYTHING WOULD BE FALSE. I suppose no atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, agnostic, etc. has ever killed or harmed others? You know better, but I don't see you claiming that atheism is false because of it. Believe me, Christians have done (and do) some horrible, horrible things. HUMANS do horrible things, we aren't going to try and falsify humanity, too are we?
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(Xianity is the bloodiest of all religions--even among Xians! If Xianity was truthful, then why are there thousands of divisions between Xian religions? A truthful religion wouldn't have those VAST differences. Let me say here that I don't think of myself as an atheist or agnostic. I know there's a God and I believe in IT (not him). I explained in the previous comment my perception of God. I don't know anything about atheism. I don't know what kind of malevolent things atheists or agnostics have done. In regard to your comment on humans, you think I of all people would falsify humanity!!! I am a humanist. I believe in the spirit of humanity. I believe God is humanity.)
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* That's the point; I don't believe it to be "man-made", you do. And you're free to do so.
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(Historical records clearly indicate how Xianity was man-made. It has also been discussed many times on this forum. The myth of salvation didn't come about until the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, when the church hierarchy was sitting around trying to figure out what would bring in the money--and the idea of a savior--was born.)
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* I can't save myself from death, neither can you. I don't see your point, you seem to believe that there IS salvation possible, and also the opportunity to miss out on it. So what wrong direction are you talking about, that heaven will belong to non-Christians and Christians will go to Hell? Or are you talking about salvation as being only in this life, as in "experiencing heaven on earth, in the here and now"?
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("The kingdom of HEAVEN is WITHIN YOU." (Not my quote.) Therefore, heaven is not "out there" or "up there." Heaven is INSIDE YOU! Heaven is HERE and NOW! Eternal life is another thing altogether. It's what we transcend into when we shed our Earthsuit. Eternal life is always with us--in bodily form which is temporary, and in spiritual form which is eternal. Fortunately, for Xians regardless of what you believe on Earth, if you realize you contain the One Spirit of our Creator on Earth, you will return to the One Spirit of our Creator after your body retires. Salvation is knowing this. Salvation is your life on Earth in the present--not after death--and no one can offer you salvation other than YOURSELF! For example, you do bad things when you're alive, and you remove yourself from the One Spirit of God. There is a void there in your life and in the next. The more evil you are, the bigger void of God in your life today as well as the next. This is where YOU have control over that void. Salvation is your's because you're here. If you weren't here in physical form, then you would not have received salvation from your previous existence in the physical. When spiritually empty, there is no guarantee of eternal life. The spirit doesn't die, it just returns to the source (God). When you are born into this life, you are born again.)
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* I commented a little on this in the above paragraph, but let me also say this. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DECISION THAT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE MAKES. I shouldn't have to elaborate on that.
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(Agreed.)
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* I agree with your first statement. I am as unlimited as I have ever been. I'm very familiar with your outlook and every argument you put forth. I have used every one of these arguments in the past, plus more (and I'm sure you have more also). Thank you for the welcome. I'm happy to participate in this discussion, because it seems like every post on this topic mimics the intent of the last one. If it's really going to be a discussion, I'm glad I can provide an opposing viewpoint instead of helping the philosophical jar overflow...Peace to you whatever you believe.
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(Peace be to you, too, Brandon. I must say that I'm really, really glad you're here. You are the first Xian that I've read on this forum whom I consider to be intelligent and spiritual. I hope we have many more discussions.)

 

Re: Re: Re: Xianity devoured another soul.

BRANDON (previous post): That sounds like conspiracy phobia to me. As if all religions got together and said, "Let's create the idea of humility so we can oppress the masses for years to come." If you mean that one can become so humble as to be a doormat, to never question anything, then I agree. But that's not at all the type of or extent of, humility that I am talking about. Intellect is great, but let's not overemphasize it, OK? How many people have you either known or known about who were INCREDIBLY smart, but also extremely self-destructive, or destructive to others and society as a whole? So let's not try to worship intellect as the potential savior of society or even the individual. It's one piece of the puzzle.
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (I'm not in to conspiracy phobias. It's not a conspiracy, it's mind control plain and simple.

BRANDON: You may consider its EFFECTS to be mind control, but that's a far cry from humility being pre-concieved as a TOOL for mind control. This would mean that we Christians don't really even believe ourselves.

MEDICINE WOMAN: There's no fault in being humble, but there is a problem when one gives up oneself for a higher power (or drugs, alcohol, gambling, shopping, hand-washing, hair-pulling, anorexia, etc.).

BRANDON: It depends on what you mean by "gives up oneself". I mean being humble to the point that you stop seeing everything in terms of self ONLY. It doesn't mean you cease to think or use reason at all, that's a misconception about Christians (Although I will grant that there are plenty who do cease to think. This is not the fault of Christianity, but the fault of the INDIVIDUAL).

MEDICINE WOMAN: I see Xians as having an addiction. They're codependent with their religion. Intellect is NOT the savior of society, I've never said that.

BRANDON: Your notion that you are free from any type of "dependency", as you put it, is illusory in my opinion. It is something that comes natural to us when we like to imagine ourselves as completely independent; un-reliant on ANYTHING. It sounds good (I don't need anybody but me!), it just isn't true.

MEDICINE WOMAN:I believe salvation is not necessary. The myth of salvation was created by Saul/Paul.

BRANDON: You can believe that. As for the "myth" of salvation being created by Paul...are you excluding Jesus (even historically as a man, if not supernaturally), or even Moses? They spoke about it (Jesus to a great extent) before Paul.

MEDICINE WOMAN: The simple fact that you are alive and well on Planet Earth tells me that THIS life is your SALVATION, and that because you're here living and breathing, you have everlasting life.

BRANDON: Sorry, but I don't even understand where that came from! Why would the fact that I'm alive and breathing AUTOMATICALLY tell you that I have everlasting life? That just doesn't make any sense.

MEDICINE WOMAN: There is no death to the spirit. There is only death to the body. I like to call the body and Earthsuit. We only wear it while we're here. When we're ready to discard it, we shed the body as we transcend physical life to eternal life. There is only One Spirit, and that is the One Spirit of God. As opposed to reincarnation, one soul per body, etc., there is only the One Spirit of God which we all share. There is no death to the soul, we carry it in our Earthsuit, and when we shed our Earthsuit, the portion of the soul we carried simply returns the the source of the One Spirit of God.)

BRANDON: This is patented new-agey stuff (earthsuit, etc.). I've read "Nothing In This Book is True- But It's Exactly The Way Things Are" and the Conversations With God series, as well as others. Much of that speaks to your emotional and psychological needs more so than the Bible. Many messages in the Bible are tough to hear, they involve giving up things; EFFORT. What you're espousing plays to your emotions because IT'S EASY. IT SOUNDS SO GOOD. You can do anything you want, nothing you do really matters, because nothing can kill your spirit, which cannot be separated from God's love. It makes a mockery of your current life, in my opinion, because now your choices no longer have a consequence. Kill, lie, steal, oppress, whatever you want, it's all good! I'm not saying you do any of these things or view them as good, but that under your version of spirituality they would be acceptable. As for the comment about there being no death to the spirit, only the body, WE ARE IN AGREEMENT there!
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Your religious beliefs in this life, fortunately, will not hurt you in the afterlife, but you will see when you get there that your religious beliefs were wrong.

BRANDON: You just underscored my point. There is NO HARM done, but you tried to say there was earlier! Conversely, I cannot make the same claim for your beliefs. This is not to say that your belief should come from fear; I don't like that approach, it's something that I think my Christian brothers and sisters should be careful with. It should never be denied, but I don't think it should be the main focus of "witnessing", if you want to call it that.


MEDICINE WOMAN: Ultimately, we all have eternal life. That is the gift that we have as human beings. Man-made religions in their own ways tried to teach this to their believers, but they just got it wrong. Hurting others? Ultimately, it won't really hurt them either. When they cross-over, they'll see what the truth is, too. My problem with it is that I wish they knew the truth BEFORE they shed their Earthsuit. It's a beautiful truth. It's something no one can take away from you. It's your God-given gift. Well, I'm really glad to see that you're not a Xian out there trying to scorch the Earth with rapture stories.)

BRANDON: What reason would you have to claim that your beliefs aren't man-made? I don't know if you've read the books I mentioned before, but they were written by man also! The views you are touting are straight from them. Either you got them from something you read, or you came up with them yourself, so where does the man-made part not come into play for YOUR beliefs? There seems to be a double-standard here. You seem to want scientific proof from the Bible, but these other views are believed on nothing more! Thank you for recognizing that not all Christians are alike, however. That is my main goal here. I know I cannot convince you of my beliefs, and as I said to Wes, nor would I want to. Your free will is the greatest gift God has given you.
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BRANDON (previous post): I used to think of it as backward, also.I understand where you're coming from (more than you realize), I just don't feel the same way anymore. FURTHERMORE...I can't believe the logic you're putting out there. Because Christians have participated in wars, then Christianity is false? If that were the case, EVERYTHING WOULD BE FALSE. I suppose no atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, agnostic, etc. has ever killed or harmed others? You know better, but I don't see you claiming that atheism is false because of it. Believe me, Christians have done (and do) some horrible, horrible things. HUMANS do horrible things, we aren't going to try and falsify humanity, too are we?
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Xianity is the bloodiest of all religions--even among Xians!

BRANDON: I'm not well-versed enough in history to say otherwise, but it's possible that more blood has been shed OVER Christianity than any other religion. That's a far cry from stating that Christians are malevolent people.

MEDICINE WOMAN: If Xianity was truthful, then why are there thousands of divisions between Xian religions? A truthful religion wouldn't have those VAST differences.

BRANDON: Who says so? The "differences" as you put them, aren't necessarily always that great. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: what are the chances that you agree with EVERY OTHER humanist out there? Pretty slim. Does that nullify humanism? Let's apply your logic to both sides.

MEDICINE WOMAN: Let me say here that I don't think of myself as an atheist or agnostic. I know there's a God and I believe in IT (not him). I explained in the previous comment my perception of God. I don't know anything about atheism. I don't know what kind of malevolent things atheists or agnostics have done.

BRANDON: I may be wrong about this, but I thought I had read that Hitler was an atheist (he was a Christian as a youth, but later decided that it was for "sissies".) I'm just trying to make you apply the same logic you use against Christianity to atheism or other religions. If you think that because people who have called themselves Christians have done bad things that it shows Christianity to be false, then good luck on ANY truth! Bad things have been done by EVERY type of person with EVERY type of belief. Surely you don't doubt that?

MEDICINE WOMAN: In regard to your comment on humans, you think I of all people would falsify humanity!!! I am a humanist. I believe in the spirit of humanity. I believe God is humanity.)

BRANDON: Just as I was saying above, I just want you to apply the same fallacious logic to your own beliefs. It's a convenient way to try to dismiss Christianity to say that no bad would ever come out of its name if it were the truth. Many people are misguided, even Christians or those who claim to be.
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BRANDON: That's the point; I don't believe it to be "man-made", you do. And you're free to do so.
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Historical records clearly indicate how Xianity was man-made. It has also been discussed many times on this forum. The myth of salvation didn't come about until the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, when the church hierarchy was sitting around trying to figure out what would bring in the money--and the idea of a savior--was born.)

BRANDON: I'll get back to you on this one, but I can say this: Many books of the New Testament were written WAY BEFORE the Council of Nicea. Paul gives reference to those who witnessed the Resurrected Christ, including himself. Considering the fact that he was around at the time of Christ's death, how could you possibly say such a thing? Paul is a historical person, mind you, and not only that but perhaps the greatest persecutor of Christians who ever lived until his instantaneous conversion. Imagine a man who persecuted those who followed Jesus, and later faced incredible persecution and eventual beheading in His name.
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MEDICINE WOMAN: ("The kingdom of HEAVEN is WITHIN YOU." (Not my quote.) Therefore, heaven is not "out there" or "up there." Heaven is INSIDE YOU! Heaven is HERE and NOW! Eternal life is another thing altogether. It's what we transcend into when we shed our Earthsuit. Eternal life is always with us--in bodily form which is temporary, and in spiritual form which is eternal. Fortunately, for Xians regardless of what you believe on Earth, if you realize you contain the One Spirit of our Creator on Earth, you will return to the One Spirit of our Creator after your body retires. Salvation is knowing this. Salvation is your life on Earth in the present--not after death--and no one can offer you salvation other than YOURSELF! For example, you do bad things when you're alive, and you remove yourself from the One Spirit of God. There is a void there in your life and in the next. The more evil you are, the bigger void of God in your life today as well as the next. This is where YOU have control over that void. Salvation is your's because you're here. If you weren't here in physical form, then you would not have received salvation from your previous existence in the physical. When spiritually empty, there is no guarantee of eternal life. The spirit doesn't die, it just returns to the source (God). When you are born into this life, you are born again.)

BRANDON: I'm sorry, but this is more new-age talk that you can't prove has any more authenticity than Christian views. Once again, I think it's easier to believe than Christianity because it SOUNDS GOOD. That being said, it is just as much a "fairy tale" as many consider Christianity to be. You had stated in your previous post that you don't believe in them.

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BRANDON (previous post): I agree with your first statement. I am as unlimited as I have ever been. I'm very familiar with your outlook and every argument you put forth. I have used every one of these arguments in the past, plus more (and I'm sure you have more also). Thank you for the welcome. I'm happy to participate in this discussion, because it seems like every post on this topic mimics the intent of the last one. If it's really going to be a discussion, I'm glad I can provide an opposing viewpoint instead of helping the philosophical jar overflow...Peace to you whatever you believe.
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Peace be to you, too, Brandon. I must say that I'm really, really glad you're here. You are the first Xian that I've read on this forum whom I consider to be intelligent and spiritual. I hope we have many more discussions.)

BRANDON: Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I find the debate stimulating, and you are quite gracious at times. Believe me when I say that I would love for your views to be true...I don't wish anyone to suffer, and I really mean that. I don't wish it upon anyone in this lifetime, nor in the afterlife.

Brandon

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Xianity devoured another soul.

Originally posted by Brandon432003
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (I'm not in to conspiracy phobias. It's not a conspiracy, it's mind control plain and simple.

BRANDON: You may consider its EFFECTS to be mind control, but that's a far cry from humility being pre-concieved as a TOOL for mind control. This would mean that we Christians don't really even believe ourselves.

(No, you believe because you are afraid to NOT believe.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: There's no fault in being humble, but there is a problem when one gives up oneself for a higher power (or drugs, alcohol, gambling, shopping, hand-washing, hair-pulling, anorexia, etc.).

BRANDON: It depends on what you mean by "gives up oneself". I mean being humble to the point that you stop seeing everything in terms of self ONLY. It doesn't mean you cease to think or use reason at all, that's a misconception about Christians (Although I will grant that there are plenty who do cease to think. This is not the fault of Christianity, but the fault of the INDIVIDUAL).

(Losing onself as in believing in a man-made religion (there ALL man-made religions) where the human being sees himself (yes, individual fault) as inferior and not deserving of God.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: I see Xians as having an addiction. They're codependent with their religion. Intellect is NOT the savior of society, I've never said that.

BRANDON: Your notion that you are free from any type of "dependency", as you put it, is illusory in my opinion.

(How would you know this. You don't know me!)
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It is something that comes natural to us when we like to imagine ourselves as completely independent; un-reliant on ANYTHING.

(I never said we were UNRELIANT on anything. We're RELIANT on the Spirit of God to exist and have everlasting spiritual life.)
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It sounds good (I don't need anybody but me!), it just isn't true.

(See comment above. We need God. God needs us.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN:I believe salvation is not necessary. The myth of salvation was created by Saul/Paul.

BRANDON: You can believe that. As for the "myth" of salvation being created by Paul...are you excluding Jesus (even historically as a man, if not supernaturally), or even Moses? They spoke about it (Jesus to a great extent) before Paul.

(Show me the citations. Moses may have believed in a coming Messiah, but he had no idea about Jesus. Jesus had no idea about Jesus. Paul created the mythology of the savior Jesus long after Jesus was not around. Paul didn't even know Jesus. Jesus had never met Paul.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: The simple fact that you are alive and well on Planet Earth tells me that THIS life is your SALVATION, and that because you're here living and breathing, you have everlasting life.

BRANDON: Sorry, but I don't even understand where that came from!
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(Why would you understand this? This is MY theory. I haven't read it anywhere, and I don't belong to any New Age group. What I write here are my own ideas and beliefs. Unless they're a quote, they come from my heart.)
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Why would the fact that I'm alive and breathing AUTOMATICALLY tell you that I have everlasting life? That just doesn't make any sense.
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(Life is cyclic. The spirit is eternal.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: There is no death to the spirit. There is only death to the body. I like to call the body and Earthsuit. We only wear it while we're here. When we're ready to discard it, we shed the body as we transcend physical life to eternal life. There is only One Spirit, and that is the One Spirit of God. As opposed to reincarnation, one soul per body, etc., there is only the One Spirit of God which we all share. There is no death to the soul, we carry it in our Earthsuit, and when we shed our Earthsuit, the portion of the soul we carried simply returns the the source of the One Spirit of God.)

BRANDON: This is patented new-agey stuff (earthsuit, etc.).
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(This is MY own creation of a WORD. No one else that I know of has ever coined this phrase. I have never seen it written anywhere else. I've used this term "Earthsuit" for the past 30 or so years in published poetry, so you have seen it nowhere else but here!)
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I've read "Nothing In This Book is True- But It's Exactly The Way Things Are" and the Conversations With God series, as well as others. Much of that speaks to your emotional and psychological needs more so than the Bible. Many messages in the Bible are tough to hear, they involve giving up things; EFFORT. What you're espousing plays to your emotions because IT'S EASY. IT SOUNDS SO GOOD. You can do anything you want, nothing you do really matters, because nothing can kill your spirit, which cannot be separated from God's love. It makes a mockery of your current life, in my opinion, because now your choices no longer have a consequence. Kill, lie, steal, oppress, whatever you want, it's all good! I'm not saying you do any of these things or view them as good, but that under your version of spirituality they would be acceptable. As for the comment about there being no death to the spirit, only the body, WE ARE IN AGREEMENT there!

(I have not read any New Age type material. My thoughts and ideas are MINE. That's not to say that I won't ever write a book on spirituality. I'm contemplating that right now. I don't consider my thoughts to be new stuff but very old stuff.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Your religious beliefs in this life, fortunately, will not hurt you in the afterlife, but you will see when you get there that your religious beliefs were wrong.

BRANDON: You just underscored my point. There is NO HARM done, but you tried to say there was earlier! Conversely, I cannot make the same claim for your beliefs. This is not to say that your belief should come from fear; I don't like that approach, it's something that I think my Christian brothers and sisters should be careful with. It should never be denied, but I don't think it should be the main focus of "witnessing", if you want to call it that.

(I just want people to know the truth, not a bias of the truth. Life is so much more beautiful than Xians can express. They leave their salvation to a savior that never was (and may not have even existed!). Your life is a GIFT to YOU from GOD! Your SALVATION is a GIFT to you from GOD! There's no middleman needed. There is no organized religion needed.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: Ultimately, we all have eternal life. That is the gift that we have as human beings. Man-made religions in their own ways tried to teach this to their believers, but they just got it wrong. Hurting others? Ultimately, it won't really hurt them either. When they cross-over, they'll see what the truth is, too. My problem with it is that I wish they knew the truth BEFORE they shed their Earthsuit. It's a beautiful truth. It's something no one can take away from you. It's your God-given gift. Well, I'm really glad to see that you're not a Xian out there trying to scorch the Earth with rapture stories.)

BRANDON: What reason would you have to claim that your beliefs aren't man-made?

(Because I originally thought of them. I did not read them in any book.)

I don't know if you've read the books I mentioned before, but they were written by man also! The views you are touting are straight from them. Either you got them from something you read, or you came up with them yourself, so where does the man-made part not come into play for YOUR beliefs?

(These are my thoughts and ideas. I've read them nowhere else.)

There seems to be a double-standard here. You seem to want scientific proof from the Bible, but these other views are believed on nothing more! Thank you for recognizing that not all Christians are alike, however. That is my main goal here. I know I cannot convince you of my beliefs, and as I said to Wes, nor would I want to. Your free will is the greatest gift God has given you.

(Science will be able to explain "God," but it may take more time. Religion keeps "God" a mystery, something not approachable as a human, but this is not true. There is a fine line that separates religion and quantum physics. I'm not a physicist, so I cannot explain the scientific part. I am not religious, but I understand the religious side because I used to be a devoutly educated Xian. There will be a happy medium in the future. But you must remember that when science is able to explain the existence of God, science will also disprove Xianity.
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BRANDON (previous post): I used to think of it as backward, also.I understand where you're coming from (more than you realize), I just don't feel the same way anymore. FURTHERMORE...I can't believe the logic you're putting out there. Because Christians have participated in wars, then Christianity is false? If that were the case, EVERYTHING WOULD BE FALSE.

(No. Xianity is the bloodiest of all religions. Read your history.)

I suppose no atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, agnostic, etc. has ever killed or harmed others? You know better, but I don't see you claiming that atheism is false because of it. Believe me, Christians have done (and do) some horrible, horrible things. HUMANS do horrible things, we aren't going to try and falsify humanity, too are we?

(No. The RCC alone has done most of the killings. How can this be what God wanted? It couldn't. God isn't a distructive God. God is a creative God.)
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BRANDON: I'm not well-versed enough in history to say otherwise, but it's possible that more blood has been shed OVER Christianity than any other religion. That's a far cry from stating that Christians are malevolent people.

(Xian history is malevolent, but I do believe you are on a higher spiritual level than the other Xians on this forum. You seem to have more peace within.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: If Xianity was truthful, then why are there thousands of divisions between Xian religions? A truthful religion wouldn't have those VAST differences.

BRANDON: Who says so? The "differences" as you put them, aren't necessarily always that great. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: what are the chances that you agree with EVERY OTHER humanist out there? Pretty slim. Does that nullify humanism? Let's apply your logic to both sides.

(Let's see, there's Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Primitive Baptists, Church of God, Church of Christ, many versions of Pentecostal churches, the snake handlers, the poison drinkers, the Northern Baptists, the Southern Baptists, the hard shell Bible Belt Baptists, the United Methodists, the Charismatic Catholics, the Latin Catholics, the American Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Missionary Baptists, blah, blah, blah, blah.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: Let me say here that I don't think of myself as an atheist or agnostic. I know there's a God and I believe in IT (not him). I explained in the previous comment my perception of God. I don't know anything about atheism. I don't know what kind of malevolent things atheists or agnostics have done.

BRANDON: I may be wrong about this, but I thought I had read that Hitler was an atheist (he was a Christian as a youth, but later decided that it was for "sissies".)

(I had also read that Hitler was raised as a Catholic, but he had a Jewish grandfather that he hated. I don't know how he felt about Xians, but he sure seemed to like the idea of blond-haired, blue-eyed Aryans, so he set out to destroy anyone who didn't look like this!)

I'm just trying to make you apply the same logic you use against Christianity to atheism or other religions. If you think that because people who have called themselves Christians have done bad things that it shows Christianity to be false, then good luck on ANY truth! Bad things have been done by EVERY type of person with EVERY type of belief. Surely you don't doubt that?

(I know Xianity. I don't know about atheism or other religions. My beliefe that Xianity is false has nothing to do with Xians doing bad things. It has to do with the creators of Xianity (Paul and company) creating false beliefs. That's why I left the church. I found out they lied to me.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Historical records clearly indicate how Xianity was man-made. It has also been discussed many times on this forum. The myth of salvation didn't come about until the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, when the church hierarchy was sitting around trying to figure out what would bring in the money--and the idea of a savior--was born.)

BRANDON: I'll get back to you on this one, but I can say this: Many books of the New Testament were written WAY BEFORE the Council of Nicea.

(Which ones?)

Paul gives reference to those who witnessed the Resurrected Christ, including himself.

(Have you ever read Elaine Pagels?)

Considering the fact that he was around at the time of Christ's death, how could you possibly say such a thing?

(Again, Paul never met Jesus. Jesus never knew Paul. They lived in different times. Why didn't your church teach you that?)

Paul is a historical person, mind you, and not only that but perhaps the greatest persecutor of Christians who ever lived until his instantaneous conversion.

(He CLAIMED a conversion because he saw a money-making opportunity in it. That's all!)

Imagine a man who persecuted those who followed Jesus, and later faced incredible persecution and eventual beheading in His name.

(Because it was worth a dime to him.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: ("The kingdom of HEAVEN is WITHIN YOU." (Not my quote.) Therefore, heaven is not "out there" or "up there." Heaven is INSIDE YOU! Heaven is HERE and NOW! Eternal life is another thing altogether. It's what we transcend into when we shed our Earthsuit. Eternal life is always with us--in bodily form which is temporary, and in spiritual form which is eternal. Fortunately, for Xians regardless of what you believe on Earth, if you realize you contain the One Spirit of our Creator on Earth, you will return to the One Spirit of our Creator after your body retires. Salvation is knowing this. Salvation is your life on Earth in the present--not after death--and no one can offer you salvation other than YOURSELF! For example, you do bad things when you're alive, and you remove yourself from the One Spirit of God. There is a void there in your life and in the next. The more evil you are, the bigger void of God in your life today as well as the next. This is where YOU have control over that void. Salvation is your's because you're here. If you weren't here in physical form, then you would not have received salvation from your previous existence in the physical. When spiritually empty, there is no guarantee of eternal life. The spirit doesn't die, it just returns to the source (God). When you are born into this life, you are born again.)
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BRANDON: I'm sorry, but this is more new-age talk that you can't prove has any more authenticity than Christian views. Once again, I think it's easier to believe than Christianity because it SOUNDS GOOD.

(Brandon, Brandon! Proving authenticity? You can't do that either! It's what you BELIEVE to be true! Believing something that SOUNDS GOOD is fake. It's phoney. It's superficial. It's vanity! It's coming from your EGO! That's not where God dwells! Come on!)

That being said, it is just as much a "fairy tale" as many consider Christianity to be. You had stated in your previous post that you don't believe in them.
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BRANDON (previous post): I agree with your first statement. I am as unlimited as I have ever been. I'm very familiar with your outlook and every argument you put forth. I have used every one of these arguments in the past, plus more (and I'm sure you have more also). Thank you for the welcome. I'm happy to participate in this discussion, because it seems like every post on this topic mimics the intent of the last one. If it's really going to be a discussion, I'm glad I can provide an opposing viewpoint instead of helping the philosophical jar overflow...Peace to you whatever you believe.
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Peace be to you, too, Brandon. I must say that I'm really, really glad you're here. You are the first Xian that I've read on this forum whom I consider to be intelligent and spiritual. I hope we have many more discussions.)
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(Brandon, I would also like to say that I think you are a sincere believer, and I appreciate YOUR personal thoughts instead of lines and lines of Bible quotes. That shows me that you have a mind of your own, and it's enjoyable to discuss and debate with you over our opposing beliefs.)

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Xianity devoured another soul.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (No, you believe because you are afraid to NOT believe.)

BRANDON: How could you possibly know WHY I believe? For one thing, do you think I believe for one reason only? If I believed because of fear, I never would have questioned Christianity in the first place. Again, that's a generalization. I already told you I'm not a big proponent of the "doom-and-gloom" approach to speaking of Christ, so why would it have been my reason for belief?
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MEDICINE WOMAN: There's no fault in being humble, but there is a problem when one gives up oneself for a higher power (or drugs, alcohol, gambling, shopping, hand-washing, hair-pulling, anorexia, etc.).

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MEDICINE WOMAN: I see Xians as having an addiction. They're codependent with their religion. Intellect is NOT the savior of society, I've never said that.

BRANDON (previous post): Your notion that you are free from any type of "dependency", as you put it, is illusory in my opinion.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (How would you know this. You don't know me!)

BRANDON: Because it's just as easy for me to make the statement about you, just like you did about me. To be more specific, I am dependent on Jesus Christ, not Christianity as a worldwide religion, know what I mean? Churches can't save my soul, preachers can't save my soul...only God can save my soul. If you are talking about using intellect and reason, wouldn't that make you dependent on intellect and reason? I think we're off-track here; I don't view either one of us as being WHOLLY dependent on one thing and one thing only in life.

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MEDICINE WOMAN:I believe salvation is not necessary. The myth of salvation was created by Saul/Paul.

BRANDON: You can believe that. As for the "myth" of salvation being created by Paul...are you excluding Jesus (even historically as a man, if not supernaturally), or even Moses? They spoke about it (Jesus to a great extent) before Paul.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Show me the citations. Moses may have believed in a coming Messiah, but he had no idea about Jesus. Jesus had no idea about Jesus. Paul created the mythology of the savior Jesus long after Jesus was not around. Paul didn't even know Jesus. Jesus had never met Paul.)

BRANDON: If Moses knew about a coming Messiah, he knew about the concept of salvation, plain and simple. What else is a Messiah for? Since you wanted exact quotes, look at the words of Jesus: John 3:3, John 3:16-18. There are many to choose from! How can you say that "Jesus had no idea about Jesus"? That doesn't make any sense! Are you saying he didn't know he was the Messiah? He spoke of the fact constantly! How many verses would you like me to show you? Lastly, Paul witnessed the resurrected Christ, but no, he was not one of the original twelve, if that's what you mean.
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MEDICINE WOMAN: The simple fact that you are alive and well on Planet Earth tells me that THIS life is your SALVATION, and that because you're here living and breathing, you have everlasting life.

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MEDICINE WOMAN: There is no death to the spirit. There is only death to the body. I like to call the body and Earthsuit. We only wear it while we're here. When we're ready to discard it, we shed the body as we transcend physical life to eternal life. There is only One Spirit, and that is the One Spirit of God. As opposed to reincarnation, one soul per body, etc., there is only the One Spirit of God which we all share. There is no death to the soul, we carry it in our Earthsuit, and when we shed our Earthsuit, the portion of the soul we carried simply returns the the source of the One Spirit of God.)

BRANDON (previous post): This is patented new-agey stuff (earthsuit, etc.).
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (This is MY own creation of a WORD. No one else that I know of has ever coined this phrase. I have never seen it written anywhere else. I've used this term "Earthsuit" for the past 30 or so years in published poetry, so you have seen it nowhere else but here!)

BRANDON: I did a quick search and came across the word in lots of places. Here's a quote from someone named Aaron as part of a group discussion called the Awakened Heart in 1997 (so he must have stolen it from you).
"Here we come back to the process of doing wisdom, nurturing wisdom, all of which are useful along the path. And finally, being wisdom. This being is not nurturing or grasping or gaining, it’s simply allowing yourself to come back into the center of the heart, into what has always been there and always will be there, and to live from that space. No, in human form you may not be able to do it perfectly, and that’s fine. The angel lives in an earthsuit and the earthsuit at times is enormously distracting. Your practice is in observing the myriad distractions. Having nurtured the willingness not to get lost in those distractions, the distractions themselves become a reminder to come back home. Is there pain? Are you contracting around that pain? Just remind yourself, this pain is a conditioned expression of the One, of the true heart. Let the pain itself bring you home."
If you say you came up with the term, I believe you. Also to my surprise, it is a term used by many Christians (there is even a Christian rock band called Earthsuit- I was unaware). You may want to come up with a new term so you don't get lumped in with us! I'm just teasing here, no offense meant!

----------

MEDICINE WOMAN: (I just want people to know the truth, not a bias of the truth.

BRANDON: Unless you have some mathematical formula that proves what you're talking about, you're just as biased as I. True objectivity doesn't really exist if you think about it: You've never lived or thought as someone else, only yourself. That's bias.

MEDICINE WOMAN: Life is so much more beautiful than Xians can express.

BRANDON: I don't know why you would think such a thing. You're able to appreciate and express beauty more than I am?

MEDICINE WOMAN: Your life is a GIFT to YOU from GOD! Your SALVATION is a GIFT to you from GOD!

BRANDON: We totally agree here!

MEDICINE WOMAN: There's no middleman needed. There is no organized religion needed.)

BRANDON: You're aware of my views. The only "middleman" needed, if you want to call him that, is Jesus Christ. I agree that there is no organized religion needed (as in a church, etc.). As I said before, my church cannot save me. My pastor cannot save me. I cannot save me. Only God can save me, but he allows me to make that decision.

----------

BRANDON: What reason would you have to claim that your beliefs aren't man-made?

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Because I originally thought of them. I did not read them in any book.)

BRANDON: Do you object to the term "man"? Do you mean to say that your beliefs are "woman-made" then? That's my point, if they came from you, they are "man-made". We're no different in the fact that we both believe them to be inspired by God, right?

BRANDON (previous post): I don't know if you've read the books I mentioned before, but they were written by man also! The views you are touting are straight from them. Either you got them from something you read, or you came up with them yourself, so where does the man-made part not come into play for YOUR beliefs?

MEDICINE WOMAN: (These are my thoughts and ideas. I've read them nowhere else.)

BRANDON: That's fine, I believe you, but as I stated above, that doesn't mean they are any less man-made than Christianity. Without undeniable proof, we're both talking about man-made religions. It's a matter of BELIEF for both of us.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Science will be able to explain "God," but it may take more time. Religion keeps "God" a mystery, something not approachable as a human, but this is not true. There is a fine line that separates religion and quantum physics. I'm not a physicist, so I cannot explain the scientific part. I am not religious, but I understand the religious side because I used to be a devoutly educated Xian. There will be a happy medium in the future. But you must remember that when science is able to explain the existence of God, science will also disprove Xianity.

BRANDON: As to whether science will be able to explain God, I seriously doubt it. Science is not interested in God, only in science. And where do get the idea that if science is able to explain the existence of God, that it would disprove Christianity? They may very well find evidence to support the Christian God! You're just speculating here. And hoping.

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BRANDON (previous post): I used to think of it as backward, also.I understand where you're coming from (more than you realize), I just don't feel the same way anymore. FURTHERMORE...I can't believe the logic you're putting out there. Because Christians have participated in wars, then Christianity is false? If that were the case, EVERYTHING WOULD BE FALSE.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (No. Xianity is the bloodiest of all religions. Read your history.)

BRANDON: Yes. Wars are fought for every reason under the sun. It doesn't nullify a belief just because a war was fought over it! You're not being logical. If that were the case, then freedom is a false idea, because wars have been fought over it.
Care to abandon freedom?

BRANDON (previous post): I suppose no atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, agnostic, etc. has ever killed or harmed others? You know better, but I don't see you claiming that atheism is false because of it. Believe me, Christians have done (and do) some horrible, horrible things. HUMANS do horrible things, we aren't going to try and falsify humanity, too are we?

MEDICINE WOMAN: (No. The RCC alone has done most of the killings. How can this be what God wanted? It couldn't. God isn't a distructive God. God is a creative God.)

BRANDON: NO? Are you replying to my first statement? You doubt that every other belief has been involved in death and destruction? As for whether God is destructive or creative, I agree with you, but I think destruction is allowed in many instances. I don't see YOUR version of God stopping any of the death and destruction we see worldwide throughout history, either!

---------
BRANDON (previous post): I'm not well-versed enough in history to say otherwise, but it's possible that more blood has been shed OVER Christianity than any other religion. That's a far cry from stating that Christians are malevolent people.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Xian history is malevolent, but I do believe you are on a higher spiritual level than the other Xians on this forum. You seem to have more peace within.)

BRANDON: Thanks for the "compliment", but really. How many Christians do you actually know? How many of them do you REALLY think are malevolent (and since we're talking about violent, bloody war) murderous people?
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MEDICINE WOMAN: If Xianity was truthful, then why are there thousands of divisions between Xian religions? A truthful religion wouldn't have those VAST differences.

BRANDON: Who says so? The "differences" as you put them, aren't necessarily always that great. Let's put the shoe on the other foot: what are the chances that you agree with EVERY OTHER humanist out there? Pretty slim. Does that nullify humanism? Let's apply your logic to both sides.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Let's see, there's Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Primitive Baptists, Church of God, Church of Christ, many versions of Pentecostal churches, the snake handlers, the poison drinkers, the Northern Baptists, the Southern Baptists, the hard shell Bible Belt Baptists, the United Methodists, the Charismatic Catholics, the Latin Catholics, the American Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Coptics, Missionary Baptists, blah, blah, blah, blah.)

BRANDON: You didn't answer my question about applying your logic to YOUR beliefs. How likely is it that you agree with every other "humanist" on every single point about God? VERY UNLIKELY! So why isn't your belief nullified under the same logical conclusion?

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MEDICINE WOMAN: Let me say here that I don't think of myself as an atheist or agnostic. I know there's a God and I believe in IT (not him). I explained in the previous comment my perception of God. I don't know anything about atheism. I don't know what kind of malevolent things atheists or agnostics have done.

BRANDON: I may be wrong about this, but I thought I had read that Hitler was an atheist (he was a Christian as a youth, but later decided that it was for "sissies".)

MEDICINE WOMAN: (I had also read that Hitler was raised as a Catholic, but he had a Jewish grandfather that he hated. I don't know how he felt about Xians, but he sure seemed to like the idea of blond-haired, blue-eyed Aryans, so he set out to destroy anyone who didn't look like this!)

BRANDON: I checked into this, and there isn't a clear answer. He was raised a Catholic, but during the 40's denounced Christianity in very extreme statements, but by the same token, he didn't vouch for atheism, either.

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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Historical records clearly indicate how Xianity was man-made. It has also been discussed many times on this forum. The myth of salvation didn't come about until the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, when the church hierarchy was sitting around trying to figure out what would bring in the money--and the idea of a savior--was born.)

BRANDON: I'll get back to you on this one, but I can say this: Many books of the New Testament were written WAY BEFORE the Council of Nicea.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Which ones?)

BRANDON: From Matthew to Revelation, AD 45 to AD 90. WAY before the Council at Nicea.

BRANDON: Paul gives reference to those who witnessed the Resurrected Christ, including himself.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Have you ever read Elaine Pagels?)

BRANDON: No, I haven't.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (He CLAIMED a conversion because he saw a money-making opportunity in it. That's all!)

BRANDON: I understand that you don't believe Paul's story, but are you claiming he got rich of this idea? He was persecuted mercilessly and beheaded! Do you fully realize what kind of a death wish it was during these times to confront the Jewish faith? It was literally a death wish! Paul was imprisoned, beaten, stoned, starved...you name it. And all for some money, huh?

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MEDICINE WOMAN: ("The kingdom of HEAVEN is WITHIN YOU." (Not my quote.) Therefore, heaven is not "out there" or "up there." Heaven is INSIDE YOU! Heaven is HERE and NOW! Eternal life is another thing altogether. It's what we transcend into when we shed our Earthsuit. Eternal life is always with us--in bodily form which is temporary, and in spiritual form which is eternal. Fortunately, for Xians regardless of what you believe on Earth, if you realize you contain the One Spirit of our Creator on Earth, you will return to the One Spirit of our Creator after your body retires. Salvation is knowing this. Salvation is your life on Earth in the present--not after death--and no one can offer you salvation other than YOURSELF! For example, you do bad things when you're alive, and you remove yourself from the One Spirit of God. There is a void there in your life and in the next. The more evil you are, the bigger void of God in your life today as well as the next. This is where YOU have control over that void. Salvation is your's because you're here. If you weren't here in physical form, then you would not have received salvation from your previous existence in the physical. When spiritually empty, there is no guarantee of eternal life. The spirit doesn't die, it just returns to the source (God). When you are born into this life, you are born again.)
---------
BRANDON: I'm sorry, but this is more new-age talk that you can't prove has any more authenticity than Christian views. Once again, I think it's easier to believe than Christianity because it SOUNDS GOOD.

MEDICINE WOMAN: (Brandon, Brandon! Proving authenticity? You can't do that either! It's what you BELIEVE to be true! Believing something that SOUNDS GOOD is fake. It's phoney. It's superficial. It's vanity! It's coming from your EGO! That's not where God dwells! Come on!)

BRANDON: You're right, neither of us can prove authenticity. It comes down to belief. My point was (and I say this having been somewhat of a universalist during my agnostic days) that the things you speak of don't involve any effort! You're already saved! You can do nothing that will change that! By my own admission, Christianity doesn't sound good! It's hard work! So I very much agree with your points about religions that "sound good" being fake and phony.

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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Brandon, I would also like to say that I think you are a sincere believer, and I appreciate YOUR personal thoughts instead of lines and lines of Bible quotes. That shows me that you have a mind of your own, and it's enjoyable to discuss and debate with you over our opposing beliefs.)

BRANDON: Thank you. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that we're both sincere, and I ALWAYS appreciate that. I would like to see an ugly truth as opposed to ignorant bliss. I promise not to break out the Bible quotes anymore unless you ask me again, but in today's discussion, it was necessary when we talked historically and specifically about what people said. I look forward to our next discussion! Take care.

Brandon

 

My general assertion when it comes to Christianity is that there is no freedom in it. Think about it. There are certain contradictions, such as the idea of free will, while, at the same time, God's plan. And the fact that the belief is that you have a choice as to wether you will accept Jesus as your savior, but, if you don't, your damned for all eternity. Does that honestly sound like freedom to anyone? All three of the major religions, i.e. Christianity, Judaism, and yes, Islam (although most of you Christians would deny any legitimacy to Islam, though it is based in the Old Testament of the bible) are all fundamentally oppressive religions. Their not like Buddhism, which doesn't preach any kind of punishment should you not reach enlightenment, in fact it's ok if you don't.
I mean, are you going to sit there and honestly tell me that, because I don't happen to believe in the MANMADE DOCTRINE of Jesus of Nazareth being divine, I'm going to be eternally punished? Why do you believe in him being divine? Can you at least explain that to me?

 

Xianity devoured another soul.

Originally posted by Brandon432003
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(I've edited this to make it brief.)
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BRANDON (previous post): Your notion that you are free from any type of "dependency", as you put it, is illusory in my opinion.
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(Well, I "depend" on my paycheck which comes to me because I am proficient in what I do. I "depend" on my family, because without them I wouldn't be me. I "depend" on my instincts. Without them I would have never come where I am today. I "depend" on my spirit, because I share the One Spirit of God with all humankind. I "depend" on myself to carry out the mission God has for me. So, in that respect, I do have dependencies. The difference is that my dependencies do not rule my life. My life goes on around the things I depend on. A true dependency is hard to give up. It overtakes the mind and the spirit.)
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BRANDON: Churches can't save my soul, preachers can't save my soul...only God can save my soul.
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(Yes, this is correct, and the One Spirit of God lives WITHIN your SOUL.)
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BRANDON: As for the "myth" of salvation being created by Paul...are you excluding Jesus (even historically as a man, if not supernaturally), or even Moses? They spoke about it (Jesus to a great extent) before Paul.
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(Jesus did NOT invent Xianity. The term "Christianity" was not even used until much, much later, and was coined by Paul (who never set eyes on Jesus before, during or after the "resurrection." I do believe Jesus actually did live (many don't, even on this forum), and I believe him to have been a very religious Jewish Rabbi who was enlightened and had a wonderful message for his people.)
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BRANDON: If Moses knew about a coming Messiah, he knew about the concept of salvation, plain and simple. What else is a Messiah for? Since you wanted exact quotes, look at the words of Jesus: John 3:3, John 3:16-18. There are many to choose from! How can you say that "Jesus had no idea about Jesus"? That doesn't make any sense! Are you saying he didn't know he was the Messiah? He spoke of the fact constantly! How many verses would you like me to show you? Lastly, Paul witnessed the resurrected Christ, but no, he was not one of the original twelve, if that's what you mean.
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(Moses may have known about a coming Messiah. In fact, Moses' people are still waiting for the coming Messiah. I don't know exactly what a Messiah is for. Why is there a need for a Messiah? Don't you think God created you to carry his spirit? Why would he pick only one person to do this? He chose the entire human race as the Messiah. Brandon, I've read the Bible. I've taught the Bible. I've been to the location where Paul was beheaded and Peter was crucified upside down. It was when I made these many pilgrimages I've been on, specifically the pilgrimage to the Vatican, that I became seriously doubtful about the authenticity of Xianity. The whole church hierarchy seemed an abomination! We're the greatest creation God has made. Why would we need all this pomp and circumstance to get into heaven when it's really just God and us? I use the word "us" to mean all creation. But seeing St. Peter's I realized that this whole man-made hierarchy of gold and jewels was standing between my soul and God. I reclaimed my soul in 1978 after being in Pope John Paul II's very first audience. The day I arrived in Rome was the day of his coronation. It wasn't planned this way, it just happened. I had bought my tickets months in advance, even before Pope John Paul I was elected Pope. I cannot deny the beauty of the artistry in Rome and all the sacred places, but I just don't believe that this is what Jesus wanted from his followers. This is what Paul wanted, and he got it, and I regained my soul.)
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BRANDON (previous post): This is patented new-agey stuff (earthsuit, etc.). I did a quick search and came across the word in lots of places. Here's a quote from someone named Aaron as part of a group discussion called the Awakened Heart in 1997 (so he must have stolen it from you). "Here we come back to the process of doing wisdom, nurturing wisdom, all of which are useful along the path. And finally, being wisdom. This being is not nurturing or grasping or gaining, it’s simply allowing yourself to come back into the center of the heart, into what has always been there and always will be there, and to live from that space. No, in human form you may not be able to do it perfectly, and that’s fine. The angel lives in an earthsuit and the earthsuit at times is enormously distracting. Your practice is in observing the myriad distractions. Having nurtured the willingness not to get lost in those distractions, the distractions themselves become a reminder to come back home. Is there pain? Are you contracting around that pain? Just remind yourself, this pain is a conditioned expression of the One, of the true heart. Let the pain itself bring you home."
------------
(I've never heard of this author, and I can tell for sure that I made up my own vocabulary. I've done a lot of writing in my day. I am a published poet as it were since 1965. I've received many awards for my poetry from various groups, and I've been an invited speaker to read and discuss my poetry. So, it wouldn't surprise me if my words have been taken by others, but that's okay with me! I'm flattered!)
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BRANDON: What reason would you have to claim that your beliefs aren't man-made?
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(In that light, I have come to know and understand my beliefs. These beliefs I have didn't just appear to me like a lightbulb. Even as a small child, I had some of these beliefs. It took a lifetime for me to fully understand my beliefs. To answer your question, I really can't say my beliefs are man-made. I'm not into New Age writings. Some of it can get really corny. A lot of it is fake. Yes, I am good with words, and I've created a lot of words never published. But my beliefs were revealed to me in my soul in prayer and in meditation with just me and are inspired by God.)
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BRANDON: As for whether God is destructive or creative, I agree with you, but I think destruction is allowed in many instances. I don't see YOUR version of God stopping any of the death and destruction we see worldwide throughout history, either!
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(There is only ONE God. I don't have a version of God. I believe in the ONE God. The worldwide distruction throughout history has been started and stopped by humans. It IS within our human power to bring peace to this world, but most people believe in their own comfortable religions and too many egos get in the way. If we, the human race, banded together regardless of what our personal beliefs are, and realized we are the vehicle for God on the face of the Earth, there would be a good start at peace. When egos get in the way, that causes destruction. The human race is One Body filled with the One Spirit of God. We must realize this before we can do any good.)
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BRANDON: How likely is it that you agree with every other "humanist" on every single point about God? VERY UNLIKELY! So why isn't your belief nullified under the same logical conclusion?
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(I don't know any other "humanists" to have the opportunity to discuss anything. I would like to meet some. I'm pretty independent in my thinking, and I probably should be more proactive.)
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BRANDON: Paul gives reference to those who witnessed the Resurrected Christ, including himself.
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(But Paul lied. Paul commissioned the Gospels to be written. Luke was his friend, but Paul never saw Jesus at any time.)
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MEDICINE WOMAN: (Have you ever read Elaine Pagels?)
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BRANDON: No, I haven't.
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(The reason I asked you if you had read anything by Elaine Pagels, she is a Biblical scholar from Harvard or Princeton. She's wrote many books on God, Jesus and Xianity, from a researcher's standpoint. I highly recommend her books to anyone who wants to learn the truth. She's definitely NOT New Age!)
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BRANDON: I understand that you don't believe Paul's story, but are you claiming he got rich of this idea? He was persecuted mercilessly and beheaded! Do you fully realize what kind of a death wish it was during these times to confront the Jewish faith? It was literally a death wish! Paul was imprisoned, beaten, stoned, starved...you name it. And all for some money, huh?
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(Brandon, why don't you look up some of my recent posts. I recently quoted a lengthy citation from "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity," by Hyam Maccoby. It's on my list, just click on my name and you'll go to it.)
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BRANDON: You're right, neither of us can prove authenticity. It comes down to belief. My point was (and I say this having been somewhat of a universalist during my agnostic days) that the things you speak of don't involve any effort! You're already saved! You can do nothing that will change that! By my own admission, Christianity doesn't sound good! It's hard work! So I very much agree with your points about religions that "sound good" being fake and phony.
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(The things I speak of don't involve effort, because they were a GIFT from God!) Peace

 

yeah..... well i skipped about 90% of your debate here, and i hope i'm not lost in the mesh of 3 page long responses.

Anyways, I reject Christianity for it's basic reasons, like almost all other religion and faith. Because it wants you to live your life for someone else (god). It wants you to love something because it created you (died for you, whatever). I'm not going to love my parents just because their bodies produced me, and i'm not going to love a bum on the street because he says he'll die for me.

When i was young, i also didn't like it because it said heaven was all good and everything was perfect. Well wouldn't that get boring and be just as bad as hell for being the same always?
But i was young, simpleminded.

Basically, i reject it because it condems your life here, it wants you to live for something that isnt really life at all.

 

Zagen -

Well said. You may have been young and simple minded when you originally came up with your ideas about heaven, but some thoughts do not require a complex mind. A rationalization that an eternity spent in an unchanging "perfect" place would be boring in the extreme is definitely one of those thoughts that SHOULD NOT require complex thought (but of course, some people will always believe what they are told).

Not only would heaven be boring, but could you imagine an eternity of worshipping something? I would prefer physical torture. Why does God need sentient beings for this? I guess it appeals to "His" vanity.

If evil is the absence of God then what kind of being is Satan? Remember, victors in a war write the history.

- KitNyx

 

I would have to agree with you again...After thinking about it a little, my greatest problem with religion is the fact that it teaches about a "better" place after life. As if life is so bad, yes we have to worry about money, taxes, food, shelter, water, etc...but we decide how much to worry about these things or even if we worry at all. There is pain and sadness...but there is also pleasure and love. Life is what we MAKE of it. There are many things I perceive as much more enjoyable (and constructive) than going to church. In fact, if you think about it, going to church is all about saving yourself, it is kind of a selfish deal is it not?

Life is not evil, life is not "bad". It can be a great and wonderous place, but only if you open your eyes and look.

- KitNyx

 

It is perception!

Originally posted by KitNyx
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Life is what we MAKE of it. Life is not evil, life is not "bad". It can be a great and wonderous place, but only if you open your eyes and look.
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(KitNyx, I agree with you whole-heartedly but, sadly, some of those who "open their eyes" don't see what we see. They see what that WANT to see.)

 

Re: It is perception!

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MEDICINE WOMAN: (KitNyx, I agree with you whole-heartedly but, sadly, some of those who "open their eyes" don't see what we see. They see what that WANT to see.) [/B][/QUOTE]

BRANDON: Medicine Woman, I haven't replied to your previous rebuttal, yet, I will soon. I had to jump in on this though...that is exactly the point I made about YOUR beliefs...I think you are seeing what you WANT to see, because it involves no effort! My beliefs involve sacrifice, who WANTS to do that? I'm interested in Truth whether it is easy to swallow or not...I could make up beliefs that allow me to do whatever I feel like also; that just wouldn't make them true, only self-centered.

Brandon