yazata, i was referring to science in general, not "institutionalized" science. a gifted person in a well equipped lab will make discoveries just like post grad would but most of those "discoveries" would have probably already be made. BTW, as odd as it sounds, i do not consider an "obsessive" tinkerer to be a scientist. this brings up the observation of what is the difference between research and science. could the unethical research by the NAZI's be called science? in my opinion a pure scientist wouldn't have a problem with ethics, only in the application.