Why commit suicide?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Saint, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

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    Congrats, you just uncovered the meaning of life..

    Well, my idea of it anyway.

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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Not when they are having mental problems and don't have their wits about them. I do however understand that when a person is dying of some catastrophic illness and is in a very bad way with no possible way of living through their ordeal, that that time is when there should be a way to allow them , with up most caution from several doctors and the law, to allow them to take their own life. The reason I'm asking that the law interceded is that people are sometimes not capable of understanding what is going to happen to themselves if they sign their life away and must be given protection from that by having a judge confirm the illness by 3 doctors confirming it in court.

    Because being tossed gives professionals time to understand what you are having problems with and could then help you by getting you either on proper medications or a stay in the institution for some time to help you regain yourself. That time inan institution is many times very benificial for it gives time for a person to get away from where they were and have a very controlled environment to watch them and talk to them about the difficulties they are having. By allowuing professionals to evaluate, understand and administer the help needed is a very good idea instead of not giving anyone the time to settle down and be evaluated.

    I'd hate to be your family member if they were ever having mental problems and needed to be institutionalized for any reason other than what you think. You wouldn't be a very good psychologist in helping anyone that has mental problems that severe, you'd just let them die I feel with thinking like that.

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  5. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    My stay in the Chateau du Nutter was very beneficial, if annoying.
    They are always nagging.
    That was when I was 16/17.
    I still get up and force myself to do things because they taught me that's how to work it...and it does work.
    You have to force yourself up.

    I feel like I could possibly do with another trip.
    But if I go I lose my job.

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    That would be bad.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2011
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  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Can't you use your vacation time to go there? How long do you think you'll need to stay there?
     
  8. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    That's when they wouldn't be in a position to know what they want. If they can't count to 10 or synthesize the contents of a news report, that kind of thing where they're demonstrably disconnected from demonstrable reality. The idea that you can help them become the person they want to be and live the life they want to live is not demonstrable, and it's wrong to expect every individual to take a gamble on these often fraudulent guarantees. It's not for you to decide what a person should want out of life or how they should perceive it, as long as they're not telling you what to do with your own life.

    The courts should only be there to determine if the person has a basic clue as to what's going on in the world around them and if they pose a physical threat to someone else's safety. Beyond that, it's just high-minded nosiness and moral intrusion.

    And if it doesn't work out to the patient's benefit, what's their compensation for the unwarranted intrusion? If you force a patient to receive treatment or sit in detention against their will, with all the suffering and stigma that causes, and then fail to help them in a way which the patient defines as beneficial, then you've just committed malpractice in my book. In voluntary medicine you don't have this problem because the patient agrees in advance as to what would be a beneficial outcome, and what form of treatment the doctor is going to attempt. If the patient's health is in jeopardy and they're not conscious and sufficiently aware to give their informed consent or refusal, that's a different matter altogether- I think it's ok to practice emergency medicine on someone when you don't have their documented refusal on record.

    Yeah well if I grabbed you off the street for evaluation and detained you long-term, because you decided to do something with yourself that I wouldn't personally do with myself, and you perceived yourself to have been harmed as a result of the experience, you think it's fair that the legal system should summarily tell you to take a hike? I think compensation is in order and would balance things out very handsomely for those whose liberties are repeatedly and systematically violated.

    You're not my family member, so that's not a concern for you. If you're not prepared to give your children their basic liberties when they come of age, then I don't think you're truly fit to have children. If someone tells me they're suicidal I might well opt to seek an intervention, but that's not the same as intrusively monitoring someone to determine if they might develop suicidal thoughts and then acting on suspicion. When I have a friend and I'm concerned they might make an attempt on their life, I offer them my basic support and recommend avenues for getting help, as I have done in the past, but I don't go spying on them or reporting on them unless I have some reason to think that's what they really want me to do.
     
  9. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Let's break it down.

    Definition: The Physical body is destroyed / stopped to be functioning as a result of the actions of the mind.

    Why : Obviously one is living and no longer wants to be living. Would rather be not living.

    Causes: Innumerable. There is a saying "Don't judge someone till you walk a mile in their shoes". Here you cannot walk a mile, you must walk that person's whole life before you can correctly surmise their Suicide was foolish or trivial and I would argue IT NEVER IS TRIVIAL and foolishness is merely a matter of perspective. Each person can accumulate a certain amount of physical damage before their body succumbs to illness, injury or age(which itself is simply the accumulation of small damage). This can vary from person to person. So too with the mind, it accumulates damage over the lifetime and it is not the same person to person, nor does the same incident affect two person exactly the same way. When the mind has accumulated enough damage, it is maimed, if even more it can indeed be destroyed. As with the body not all that affects the mind can currently be cured, or even coped with. Life is, in essence, the accumulation of damage. How much and how it is handled varies from person to person.

    Damage : As mentioned the next of kin are affected. Yes they are, but from my experience, I feel it is mostly their own feelings of guilt over the act (perhaps they helped the mental anguish - and indeed perhaps they DID), and how the death affects them and puts them out. I have no sympathy for selfish anguish. People who simply feel the normal sorrow over any death are acting normally over a suicide. What's done is done and regret only adds a 2nd act of stupidity to the first (and I mean regretting not being able to stop the person NOT the actual suicide).

    Prevention: Here is where the real argument lay. Religion is often able to enslave the weak-minded and they come full circle by often making suicide the WORST thing you can do, certain sentencing to fire and brimstone. ANYTHING remotely resembling this kind of thing is nothing short of mental slavery and abhorrent. Such verbiage should actually be considered verbal abuse with the appropriate punishment for that in society. The actual way to prevent it, is to recognize the signs (and there is a multitude) and if you actually give a shit about that person you need to give them whatever you will(and I mean will not "can" - a suicidal person is very keen about fakery), to help.
     
  10. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    "Life is like animal porn.... it's not for everyone." - Doug Stanhope

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  11. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    I believe I'd lose my license to do what it is that I do, be declared unfit. So I just have to determine that I'm going to keep soldiering through. I'm needed by others.
     
  12. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Your needed by yourself more.

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  13. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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  14. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    I have to say I very much appreciate the analytical breakdown provided by Nietzschefan, along with the accompanying recommendations. If you truly care about someone and want to prevent them from attempting suicide, don't throw them in some dingy fascist mental institute. Rather, put yourself at their disposal to do whatever you're willing to do to make their lives a bit easier, and if you can't give what they ask, just leave them the hell alone.

    I think I understand the point Repo Man is trying to make as well. It's nothing less than foolish for a person who's feeling good about life and enjoying success to be passing judgment on the thought process of someone who isn't.
     
  15. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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  16. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what it is you do, but for all the downsides of lumping depression in a similar category to broken bones, one of the upsides is (at least in Canada) that in general you can't discriminate against someone for such a disability, as long as they've been medically diagnosed as such and are following the prescribed treatment. Losing your career over treatment for a diagnosed mental illness would be no different than being involved in a car accident and losing your career over treatment for a diagnosed physical ailment. Why don't you contact your doctors and at least send some feelers out that you're not feeling so good, but you're worried about the effect on your career if you seek help or time off.

    It sounds like you have a lot at stake and don't want to throw it away, but you feel the need for help all the same, nothing wrong with that in my opinion. If you have a problem and you need to power through it over the long term, it's probably a good idea to deal with the problem and seek treatment or therapy, as it's not likely to go away on its own.

    I think the ultimate choices and decisions should be up to you and not for anyone else to decide or impose on your behalf, but there are many avenues you should attempt which might possibly bring you contentment and help you get on with your life- couldn't hurt to try, right? And at least you know there's plenty of other folks out there who are feeling much the same way, and there are lots of people out there who soldier through the day but feel pretty broken on the inside. I've read that most people will seriously contemplate suicide at least once in their lives.
     
  17. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    It's not so much therapy but hospitalization that would be problematic. I'm feeling...a bit less wobbly. Will work on improving that.
     
  18. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    "The Inn of 1000 Sorrows" by Kipling. If you want to go, that is how it should be done. Opium, a pipe, a bed and a candle. If I did it, that is how I would go.

    But only if I knew I was going to die a very painful or undignified death (dementia, say).

    Otherwise - you are stuck with me for a very long time.

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  19. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Kind of makes me think, what would a typical psychiatrist say about Romeo and Juliet? Would they consider it an abhorrent work for romanticizing suicide? Maybe they should force theatre companies to include a disclaimer at the start of every performance?

    As for opium OD, I'm sure that's a nice way to go if you do it properly, but not so great if you botch it or get caught in the act. I think I know a way which is both easy to obtain and as quick, nonviolent and peaceful as anything you can imagine, but I won't say it here because I don't want to give anyone ideas they might try to act on.
     
  20. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Well talk to someone about it and see if those kinds of concerns can be addressed. Maybe you can do it on an outpatient basis and attend therapy groups without acquiring the stigma of a hospital stint on your record? I mean it sounds like you're not ready to throw in the towel but you're having a really tough time, so you should definitely do something about it rather than let the problem accumulate. We humans are not islands unto ourselves, we didn't evolve to operate that way.
     
  21. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Between when the groups are scheduled at the poor people's hospital and my job I'd be getting very little sleep. Now once we hit the cooler winter months here it might be possible-once it gets below 80 I can sleep in the car somewhere until I have to go to work.... Or I could just jolly well go get a job on graveyard which is what I'd rather do anyway. Maybe a job with insurance.

    *Sucks in gut*

    Considerable portions of my problems are really stress caused by severe, chronic money deprivation...either the money issue causes them, makes them worse, or makes getting help for same a giant, exhausting challenge...the infection in my sinuses is worse again which adds fatigue, my transmission gets replaced Monday for about a month's wages, and I will have to pay cash for weekly therapy-the government agency will give me 40 minutes every two weeks...

    Sigh. So...money...it's like oxygen, no big deal unless you don't have enough.
     
  22. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    I think the romantic factor of their suicide is in the eye of the beholder.

    A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
    The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
    Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
    Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
    For never was a story of more woe
    Than this of Juliet and her Romeo.
     

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