Why commit suicide?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Saint, Jul 8, 2011.

  1. Pete It's not rocket surgery Moderator

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    I remember that case being mentioned in my Ethics and Law text.

    Here it is:
    Rogers v Whitaker, 1992 (pdf)
    It was a benchmark case that established in Australian common law a new legal test for whether a doctor has sufficiently informed a patient of risks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    im glad you found that artical, what i would have posted would have been from Austlii or wikipedia which would have given the facts of the case but not the assesment as to its implications which you get from that analysis.

    Basically it means that ALL implications of a treatment must be disclosed to a pt in order for the concent to be informed. If its not disclosed then the risk is on the HCP and even if they perform with skill they will still lose any case against them

    I dont know what she is refering to with regard to emergency care, wether it means care with assumed concent (because the pt is unconcious) because thats handled directly in the concent act or if it means treatment in a time critical situation where all the risks cant be calmly explained to a pt before treatment is started.
     
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  5. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    And you didn't actually read what I quoted ... completely missed the point about extroverts vs. introverts ... :bugeye:
     
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Don't forget the countless lawsuits for malpractice that get dimissed. Very few lawsuits actually get to court.

    And then the general unwillingness of doctors to listen to the patient or to answer questions.


    And they say that the patient was informed, but simply didn't listen, or whatever.

    I also know what doctors are like if one comes there with a notepad to take notes or to ask questions one has prepared before. Not good for the patient.
     
  8. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I hope you realize that the process of choosing a GP or a specialist is completely irrational.
    One cannot, in advance, interview a doctor before choosing them as a GP or specialist.
    Changing doctors too often can quickly mean trouble with the insurance and more.

    A doctor's reputation is tricky to go by. People often embellish information about doctors they don't like but whose patients they are.
     
  9. Fuse26 011 Banned

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    Yeah, I would say depression.
     
  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    From an article in the Washington Post, 20100303:
     
  11. Fuse26 011 Banned

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    However if one does not possess the emotion of hatred then one cannot kill (EXCEPT for self-defence)!
     
  12. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting arguments, except that they seek to project assumptions onto the suicidal person just as they claim suicidal people project onto the world. From the suicidal POV, we're the ones clinging to pathetic lives against reason, and even if the act of suicide ends their autonomy, it will at least end the ability of others to control, manipulate, abuse or neglect them. I'll tell you this much, if my own life went down the crapper one day and I had to make some tough decisions, I would not like other people to step in and tell me why I should invent new reasons to appreciate life.

    When the old reasons you had for living are no longer valid, all bets are off, the individual should be free to choose whether they invent a new meaning, drug themselves into believing in other peoples' emotional fantasies, or whether to simply call it quits. Like I said, if the act of suicide hurts friends and loved ones, let those friends and loved ones get therapy instead of forcing the suicidal person to do it against their own will. IMO medicine should change its approach to suicidal people. If friends and loved ones are the excuse for intervening, it shouldn't be a mental health/life perception issue. It should simply be an issue of "sorry kid, you're going to have to suffer whatever it is you're enduring for another 50 years, because your mom, sister and uncle don't want to suffer instead".
     
  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    What about other emotions like jealousy,love (for people in love would kill their mates sometimes if they were leaving them because they loved them and couldn't stand them to leave), compassion(if you saw an injured horse that was in agony or even a person , and knew they were already dying because of their injury) or others as well, aren't they also to be considered? :shrug:
     
  14. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Think of it this way. Suppose you had a car accident and ended up in a wheelchair. You lose your job, your girlfriend/spouse dumps you, you get to spend the rest of your life being spoonfed, mumbling and slobbering while trying to communicate even the most basic needs or wants. Your serotonin and dopamine levels are measured and found to be abnormally low. Would you really want to take a medication or therapy to help you change yourself and accept yourself for the drooling, disfigured monstrosity you've now become? What if you're not that good at math, so you can't pull a Stephen Hawking?

    Now take it a step back, suppose you're not crippled in a wheelchair, but something terrible happened to your life and you're still convinced that your dreams had now been rendered a near impossibility? Shouldn't the medical system compensate anyone who is forcefully treated or denied the right to suicide, if the "better life" they're promised never materializes? And if you can't give them a 100% money back guarantee on enjoying a "better life", what business do you have forcing them into treatment? If it were a matter of "we'll force you to seek treatment, and we'll spend 10 years in prison if it doesn't work out", then things would be far more balanced vis-a-vis imposing personal ideologies on others.
     
  15. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    No. That's because "a better life" never happens for millions of people anyway and they don't off themselves but find ways to "survive".
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2011
  16. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    And what right does that give them to claim ownership over the body of an individual who doesn't want to "survive"? Also I think your number should be bumped from millions into the billions. Lots and lots of people out there living in misery, but they're genetically programmed to reproduce and condemn their children and loved ones to much of the same- if they didn't have these basic, fundamentally irrational desires, the human species would have never survived.

    This is not to say that billions of people living in slums or loneliness should go ahead and off themselves, but they can't claim there's some fundamental rational grounds for why they choose to continue existing (and you won't hear them claiming rational grounds, since most of these people, including most doctors, still believe in some form of magic sky daddy).
     
  17. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Compassion, kindness, love and hope are but a few of the things that they have to give to others that might have gieven up hope for tomorrow because of mental illness, family problems, depression and a host of other things that overcome humans from time to time.
     
  18. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah and I think often times it's a huge help... I just don't see it as being an unconditional benefit to the person facing the intervention on every single occasion. I figure there ought to be some point, after some lengthy time period and a range of options have been considered and attempted, that the individual should have the basic liberty to take their own life if that's what they really want, and for whatever emotional or physical reason. I don't expect many people to agree with that viewpoint, but you can't claim true liberty if you don't have ownership over your own body and what gets done with it while you're alive. What's the point of "give me liberty or give me death" when putting that into practice would get you tossed into a psych unit?

    The point in medicine is to help the patient, not to do them harm. I contend that sometimes when the patient is being treated or coerced into treatment against their own will, it actually constitutes harm to them over the long term, even if that treatment or detainment is aimed at preventing a suicide. If they go to the grave thinking it wasn't worth the wait, an injustice was done to them and it's not fair to label them as ungrateful for interventions they never requested in the first place. I wouldn't be as bothered by the idea if medical and legal authorities at least dropped the pretense that the wish to die is somehow in conflict with demonstrable reality. Some perceptions are purely subjective and should be recognized as such.
     
  19. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    This is why I'm not having kids.
     
  20. SomethingClever Registered Senior Member

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    billions of people have lived and died. we are damn lucky to be alive, to be given life. it seems terribly ungrateful to kill yourself.

    that said, you never know until you are there.

    people say "it's all about perspective" and "change your mindset" but often it isn't that easy. neuro-chemistry comes into play.

    I have low serotonin levels. Everything in my life is amazing. In theory I am the luckiest person alive. I can logically think about everything I have to be grateful for, yet thinking and feeling are two very different things.

    Still, it seems like there are many options before committing suicide.
    Say your life is terrible, you've lost loved ones, you feel like the scum of the earth. If you are going to kill yourself, why not go out in style? why not run around Times Square in a lime green thong? Why not bluntly ask every attractive stranger for sex? why not max out a shit load of credit cards on Cold Stone? If you perceive your life to be a failure, why not say "fuck all this" and leave it behind. Start fresh. There are many options between misery and death. Why not walk the line for a bit, try out a new life? The only explanation I can muster is that the suicidal person, above all, wants to escape from himself. Therefore, no matter where they go, they can never escape. You cannot run from yourself.

    Epilogue: :bugeye: (also, eating healthy, exercising, and having friends makes for a potent anti-depressant. my depression lifted when I adopted a healthy diet and a regular exercise routine. coincidence? I think not.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
  21. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    I have thought about it before. Its the thought that not existing would hurt less than life. The under doings of life cause this anger.
     
  22. Fuse26 011 Banned

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    My argument exactly: God is not omnipotent (she does not know EVERYTHING), but she has the power to give someone EVERYTHING, and with such extremes of emotion one has a choice between love and hate during their life. If they choose hatred then their life is over; if they choose love then they do not kill someone, they create them.

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  23. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    If I did, I'd just be getting out of the way of all those happy, successful people...the ones who tell me I ought to be happy and look at me like I'm out of my mind when I tell them I am pretty miserable here and wish I wasn't alive often.

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    So I should stay here just to piss off the happy people.

    I've said that I wish there was a pill you could give people to let them see what it's like to be severely depressed for a few hours if they'd never been...but they'd have to be watched for their own safety until the drug wore off, because they aren't familiar with that kind of senseless internal agony.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011

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