Why can't machines programs theirselves?

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Spectrum, Sep 10, 2007.

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  1. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    With the advance of AI the computers in the future WILL be able to program themselves as some of them already can do now.
     
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  3. Spectrum Registered Senior Member

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    How so??
     
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  5. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    I think it's possible that consciousness is a result of some sort of chemical-physical process that the brain carries out, but it also seems possible that a computer could perfectly calculate the results of those processes without actually experiencing consciousness. Much like a computer could calculate the path of projectile in freefall, but not actually experience the sensation of freefall. Of course that's not really a good analogy, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at.
     
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  7. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    Yes.
     
  8. Reiku Banned Banned

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    I've not spoke on this thread before, and i liked the question.

    A few years ago, i made a hypothesis that computers by the year 2020 will have been able to acivate an Artificial Hyperdimension. In other words, become AWARE. I am going to be careful not to use the definition of ''consciousness'', because that (i believe is a purely human property and definition). Instead, we could say it experiences its own space and time, even if that is powered by superpositional computers running on magnetic flux quanta.
    There are many ways this could happen. Just the right combination and matrices of combinations the magnetic properties might accidently spark a new type of awareness. This is obviously a silicon-based lifeform, but science does not say that life cannot be silicon-based. It is still probable... ... ... Just as Spoke said, ''Its life Jim, but not as we know it,'' kinda thing.
    Then there is maybe our attempts. I don't know what the consesus view is in the physic academic world is right now, but i think it may be possible to tease a computer into existence; a record of memory independant of certain process resonsible for generating its being.
    Using a feed-back circuit, we could have the computer treat memory as valuable as the power its being generated. We can initially program this into the developing computer. This would be hard for the computer boffins, but they could do it. The computer will be programmed to follow ground state rules, but also use the ''rule of accuracy,'' and ''the principle of least action.''
    One way, i think to achieve this, is that each time a memory is stored in the feedback system as a code relative to the function of hardware, and never let it process the same information twice from the same source. Instead, allow it to have infinite freedom to the provided source of the feed-back system. Then threaten the computer into a systematic check mate. We could do this by giving it the power, and the programmed response to that power, to delete itself. Thus, if it wants to survive, it will need to obtain information from the new source to stop the inevitable count down. If the computer is tuned correctly, and by somehwhat of a miracle, maybe the computer will choose to live rather than the operation of deletion. If it does, it made its first evolutionary step.
     
  9. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    machines can never become aware so that they could have free will to program themselves because machines can only follow programs. they can't create programs-- they can't think.

    a computer can't care about surviving because it has no feelings.
     
  10. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Your mistaking human awareness with artificial awareness. And a system can be conditioned.

    A dog has no real feelings, but it still can be conditioned to act in an appointed situation.
     
  11. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Computerized systems constantly determine the evolution of mechanical coherences. Systems will either choose an available path or they choose deletion. It happens all of the time in major computer systems.
     
  12. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    um... what are you talking about? dogs do have real feelings, like all other animals.
     
  13. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    All of these blanket statements about what a computer can and can't acheive regarding conscious awareness are pretty funny given the fact that we haven't yet the faintest clue how the human (or dog) brain does this.
     
  14. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    what is the difference between that and actual consciousness?
     
  15. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    an article i was reading


    read the whole thing here

    http://reason.com/news/show/122423.html
     
  16. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Google "chinese room problem" - that's what we were talking about.
     
  17. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    read page 1
     
  18. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose I should repfrase the question.

    I agree with you that that is not a good analogy, since a freefall is a pretty physical thing to experience.

    What would you consider to be "to experience consciousness"?
     
  19. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    Well, that's just the thing, isn't it? I, as a human being, assume that you are experiencing a similar state as me when you say you are "aware" and "conscious" of yourself. This is a good bet.

    But if there is a different entity (say an immensly complex computer) that claims it is aware and conscious, how could we ever know that this is true? And if the "computer" demonstrated every aspect of what we deem a conscious entity, isn't the question ultimately pointless?
     
  20. Reiku Banned Banned

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    All of these blanket statements about what a computer can and can't acheive regarding conscious awareness are pretty funny given the fact that we haven't yet the faintest clue how the human (or dog) brain does this.

    True
     
  21. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    i know that people are conscious because they look like they are. animals are also conscious to some degree but i can see that they are not as conscious as we. if we can communicate with a machine like with a human, then it is conscious.

    but the thing is that humans and animals are more than just electricity. we have a soul that feels and experiences things. a machine can't feel anything, and that's why i don't think it's possible to make a machine that is like a human.
     
  22. Varda The Bug Lady Valued Senior Member

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    ... a soul?
     
  23. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    yes, the soul is the consciousness that feels all experiences. it is what everybody calls "i".

    everything has an experiencer, but humans experience much more than other beings. animals, plants and even atoms have feelings. but the atoms that computers are made of can't make the computer conscious because they're not conscious of the computer. the atoms and electrons do all the work in the computers because it feels good for them, and that's all they care about.

    think of the electrons like ants inside a machine... the ants do all the work. we can make them do all kinds of things... the kinds of things that a computer can do. but how could this ant-machine ever become conscious?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2007
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