Why can we not say Water exist in 4 phases

Discussion in 'Chemistry' started by timojin, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Right. but there are plenty of materials that have a liquid phase near room temp. Gallium is a fun one.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    What do you mean? What makes you think we know nothing about it?

    We know plenty of things about the individual molecule - such as its 105 degree angle and how that gives rise to its macro properties. If we did not know this specific property of an individual water molecule, we would have no idea why it expands when it freezes - we would be forced to think it is magic.

    Make no mistake the angle is the property on an individual molecule.


    Lots of stuff here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prope...ydrogen_bonding_and_inter-molecular_structure
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
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  5. river Valued Senior Member

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    Fine ; but right now we are exploring water .

    ( By the way any Journal you would recommend on material science ). Tough to find ; in book stores .

    river
     
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  7. river Valued Senior Member

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    Are you saying that we understand ; that we have explored everything about a single ; a single molecule of water ?
     
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You claimed we know "nothing at al" about single molecules of H2O. That is not true. We know lots. (I did not say "everything")

    Eschew hyperbole.

    Aggregate properties are only one facet of H2O.
     
  9. river Valued Senior Member

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    Dave

    From your post # 122 ; I dare to go deeper still.

    Can we isolate an hydrogen atom down to the point of its liquidity ?
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Hang on. Now you're mixing apples and oranges.

    Neither H nor O nor H2O are liquids in individual form. Liquidity is a property of aggregates only.
     
  11. river Valued Senior Member

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    Thats what I want to do though ; is bring down a single atom of both hydrogen and oxygen to the point of liquid ; the reason ; to find what this liquid acually is.

    I've been told this before ; the liquid is an aggregate of molecules ; of both H and O . but I was hoping that technology could see deeper .

    A single atom of both.

    river
     
  12. river Valued Senior Member

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    In the future I hope that this will be possible
     
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Couple of points of confusion here.

    Liquid is the interaction of particles (the way in which they cling together). That's why you cannot have a liquid with just a single particle.

    No. Liquid water is the aggregate of the molecules. The molecules are composed of 2 Hs and an O.
    You can have liquids of single elements, such as gallium or mercury.

    The liquid is a property of the particles - those particles could be atoms or molecules. i.e the fact that the water particle is made of H and O is not the reason it is a liquid.


    That would be OH-, a Hydroxyl radical.

    H2O is a molecule of 3 atoms.

    And water is a mix of all three: H2O, OH- and H+.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    It's not an issue of technology. It's an issue of concept.

    It's like asking what the wavelength of a single crest is. Wavenlength is, by definition, the relationship between at least two crests.
     
  15. river Valued Senior Member

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    How so ; how does wavelength ; have anything to do with the liquidity of hydrogen .
     
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    It's an analogy.

    It makes no more sense to try to examine "the liquidity of a single particle" than it does to try to "measure the wavelength of a single crest of a wave".

    Liquidity is an emergent property of the interaction of multiple particles.

    You could, if you were of a mind, examine the mass, electron configuration and possible molecular structure of a single particle and deduce that it should form a liquid under certain conditions. You would have to form an aggregate to test that though.

    There are, for example materials that do not have liquid states, such as carbon dioxide. It will transform from a solid directly into a gas, a process called sublimation. This too is due to the mass, electron configuration and molecular structure of a single particle of CO2.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  17. river Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed

    But you could break the aggregate smaller ; until the technology allows no further breaking down.

    Look the higgs boson ; small to the extreme ; can be found ; surely the single atom of hydrogen can be isolated and be brought down to its aggregate temperature of liquidity.
     
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Dave, we went through all this exhaustively with river two and a half years ago, here: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/has-there-been-an-improved-understanding-of-water.135771/

    In the end we had to give up. This individual seems utterly incapable of understanding what a liquid is.

    I wish you patience and luck.
     
  19. river Valued Senior Member

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    And I had to give up ; they just didn't my point ; my depth of thought is beyond their comprehension.

    To bad really.
     
  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    You mean "too bad", I think.
     
  21. river Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed
     
  22. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    If think you must have meant,"my depth of delusion is beyond their comprehension".
     
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Certainly in the case of water, you could isolate a single molecule of H2O.
    In the case of hydrogen gas, a single molecule of H2.

    The property of liquidity involves the interplay between the strength of intermolecular bonds and overall kinetic energy.
    If the former exceeds the latter (in some way that we have not yet defined), you can expect that, in aggregate, it will behave like a liquid. Molecules will stick to each other firmly, but not rigidly.
    If the latter exceeds the former (in some way that we have not yet defined), you can expect that, in aggregate, it will behave like a gas. Molecules will fly apart from each other.

    The question then becomes: how do you determine the strength of an intermolecular bond if you only have one molecule? It's rhetorical: you can't.


    I know it feels like you are grappling with a deep question here. But you might as well wonder if, with advanced technology, will we ever determine if the little molecule is "happy".

    Anything looks deep until you break out the reading glasses, learn how it actually works, and can ask constructive questions. You should do this.
     

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