Why are things in space the shape that they are?

So you will give up on

and use

ALLfundamental ACTIONS must be PHYSICALLY possible or PHYSICS would not WORK

Ya?

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Naa... I have already stipulated to a fundamental "permittive condition", but that does not address the HOW, the mathematical permissions and restrictions of the actions themselves.
Not all physical action is mathematically permitted.

 

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You mean the reason I cannot wave my arms and do a Superman fly around the world or lift up a 2 ton mass with my little pinky is because MATHEMATICS won't let me?

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The "principle of least action" - a shorthand for the workings of probability taken as a physical existent whose descriptive mathematical theory is a means of perception, the creation of a virtual sensory organ - explains the consequences of gravity as well as the other shape-establishing "forces" whose resulting shapes we perceive via our less abstract sensory organs.

A sphere is the shape with the highest probability of formation under certain relevant combinations of circumstance, in other words.

The same "forces" under different circumstances, with different probabilities, might yield (for example) a planar hexagonal latticework:

 

How did you determine a "2 ton mass", a mathematical value?

If you tried to lift it and could not do it, would that prove anything except that you are not strong enough and would need to be able to lift ( .......mathematical equation........) to know whether you or anyone else could ever lift the object in the "experiential" physical world.

Note; Each of the 4 Universal Dimensions is a mathematical object with specific inherent mathematical ordering potentials. The Universe is a mathematical Geometric pattern.

Mathematical self-referential "values" and "algebraic" functions are a common denominator of both "space and time". Think about that.....

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No no no

Algebra is nothing more than a clever human trick to guess, rather determine the other values...nature knows the values I suspect...well of course it does..nature does not use algebra..it probably has no idea what algebra is at all. Nature will know all inputs ..it must..it can not act with out all inputs...try to see this.

First you must recognise you have a problem...no one comes out and says it but as I consider you a friend, you above so many people I respect, and although I don't look up to anyone, you make me understand what it could be to look up to someone...I admire you and respect you...and so it is this extreme high respect I take the time to guide you...but I will only suggest simply so you can enjoy what I hope is a better understanding.

Your preoccupation with maths I understand but you must accept your perception is from ..no other way to put it..your perception..

Someone said physics is the territory and maths the map...that hints at your difficulty...you see maths because of its reliable production of outcomes as the reason for those very outcomes and that can not be the case.

With maths we are following the games, as humans we think we understand the games but all we do is make sense to ourselves of the results. The matter is way more complex than the maths...the maths is like a reporter describing a battle of ten thousand humans ending with an observation that one side won.

There is more than the way you see it...I can't take you there but I know if you step back and rethink all you say in an effort to get closer to the truth as oppossed to cementing a position that is well removed on where you could be I feel that you could provide a higher wisdom than your current drift it taking you..and us..for let us not forget you points are compleling but in my view you are not grasping the truth of the matter..maths is important but you in my view are not presenting reality...and lets us go back and consider your proposition re algebra... would you care to think more about your initial impression.
Alex

 

I understand the difference between "knowing without doing" and "doing without knowing".
But if we are proposing that the universe does know the meaning of "input --> cause and effect -->, determinism --> mechanics", then why reject the terms that define these universal functions in terms of "relational values" (numbers) and "mathematical functions" (algebraic processes)?

What's the difference between humans knowing the meaning of "inputs", and "process", and "output", and the universe doing this "work" without knowing, and why would you accept one term as being correct and another as being a purely human invention? Consistency seems advisable here.

The Universe works in a consistent predictable manner, no? That is what "enabled' humans to invent a symbolic language which accurately identifies and describes these consistent universal actions to begin with.

IMO, all that means is, humans know how the universe functions, even as the universe itself doesn't need to know anything, it just does things that way.

All of human "symbolized" mathematics are based on observation of actual functional universal mechanics. To me that means the universe actually functions the way we describe it symbolically. It does not need to "know" anything. All that any "change" needs is to obey the mathematical laws of physics, the guiding principles (equations) that make everything work, which we have symbolized as "the mathematical/ physical functions of the universe" .

Algebra is not a clever trick. It is a perfect description of how the universe operates.
It adds, subtracts, multiplies, divides, and a few more exotic mathematical functions. It doesn't know 1 + 1 = 2 is an algebraic function, it is just how the universe works. It doesn't know the human symbolic terms but it is how it all works in reality, for humans and universe alike. Man's greatest "discovery" is the discovery of universal mathematics.

Terminology is "knowing (identifying) without doing", Function is "doing" (working) without knowing"....

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p.s. Your civility can be held as an example of productive social intercourse....

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No, IMO, that is the physics. The maths actually identify and describe the tactical strategies employed, explaining the numerical values of distance, trajectories and what and how one side was able to win. To say' "we won due to overwhelming physical force" is really not very informative of the actual mathematical strategic and tactical maneuvers involved.

Why does a sniper need a "spotter"? Sniper is the shooter, needing to take into account the environmental conditions of distance, elevation, wind speed, humidity.

The Spotter provides the mathematics "logistics" for all of that necessary information. Without the spotter it would be impossible to execute "one shot, one kill".

Guide to the Sniper Team

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I see physics as the narrative description of how thing work physically and the accompanying maths as the universal rules that make the physical actions possible and consistent to begin with.

I am certainly not proclaiming physics as human woo in describing cause and effect of physical interactions, however I am also not proclaiming that human mathematics is woo in describing the "relational" values and the universal "mathematical" functional processing rules that imply the determinstic effect from all causal values...

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After all is said and done, we must ask if was necessary that the universe always existed as a physical thing or began as a collection of abstract values, from which the physical universe emerged via evolutionary processes.

Did the universe begin as a point object or a field pattern?

p.s. when taking pictures of galaxies, what are the required mathematically relative values you need to consider, to make the "recording" possible?
Focal length, aperture, shutter speed, color correction are mathematical values, no?
We can argue that these mathematical instruments are only useful to humans, but that's missing the point that all human mathematics are derivative of universal mathematics.

 

It is an approximately aligned and probabilistically predictive partial model of how certain carefully limited and reasonably representative arenas of action within the universe operate.

As a model it of course comprises different and simpler stuff than what models. A model that reproduced the modeled would be useless - the whole point of a model is to omit the unnecessary, clarify and simplify the modeled, maybe get it to stay put so the modeler has time to examine it.

 

I agree, but as a model of any orderly change, what model would be simpler than the algebraic functions we use for every equation in mathematics?

Abstract algebra

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The permutations of Rubik's Cube form a group, a fundamental concept within abstract algebra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_algebra

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Pure mathematics studies the properties and structure of abstract objects, such as the E8 group, in group theory. This may be done without focusing on concrete applications of the concepts in the physical world

Pure Mathematics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_mathematics

Note that a Mathematical Universe consists of "mathematical values arranged in complex but orderly functional patterns.

 

Just don't confuse the model with the modeled.
The map is not the territory.

 

We're not talking about territory. We're talking about dynamic change. Algebraics are mathematical "functions" (processes). They are not descriptive, they are functional.

Determining Inputs & Outputs of Functions

What are the Inputs and Outputs of Functions?

Mathematical permission and restriction.

https://study.com/academy/lesson/determining-inputs-outputs-of-functions.html#

 

I have told him this a dozen times. He doesn't get it.

 

You need a map to navigate the territory. That map is Mathematical in essence. Hence the territory must by necessity be also mathematical in essence.
IMO, the law of "necessity and sufficiency" may be applicable here.

I am not trying to replace Physics with Mathematics. Physics and Mathematics explain the same thing from two fundamentally different valid perspectives. This is not an unusual condition in current Physics, no? In Physics, reality is the collective subjective observation and interpretation of objective formalized Universal Mathematical physical patterns.

Physics = Mathematics is both "necessary and sufficient". It is part of the self-referential mathematical processes. Quasi Intelligent natural ordering functions.

Nevertheless, Reality is the combination of the two logical disciplines . Our observed reality is a Mathematical in construct (enfolded) and expressed (unfolded) as objects (dense patterns) in the Physical world. (Tegmark)

Necessity and sufficiency
This article is about the formal terminology in logic. For causal meanings of the terms, see Causality. For the concepts in statistics, see Sufficient statistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency

Mathematics are an abstract property of the universe as much as Physical patterns are.
The Implicate (mathematical) order becoming expressed as the Explicate physical order. (Bohm). Both Necessary and Sufficient in a Dynamic environment...

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This may further explain my perspective.

The disciplines: Physics, Biology, Chemistry, and Math (2013)

http://umdberg.pbworks.com/w/page/58022275/The disciplines

 

NO. Physics IS the THING

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Explain the abstract Physical thing to me..., I can explain the abstract Mathematical thing......

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The Math of Stuff

IMO..." air is to water as water is to earth" ... must be a reference to "fluids" and their relative "density".

https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/devlin_11_01.html#

I have an addendum to; "In order to understand the universe, you must know the language in which it is being written. And that language is mathematics."

IMO that completes the concept ......

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My county is not ink-printed cellulose in essence.
My map of it is.

 

Your description of a physical county is actually a non-physical holograph in your mind, as much as it is a set of non-physical mathematical dimensions in the brain. All human descriptions other than being the terrain are descriptive, regardless of the way the story is told. But we are not talking about the human scientific language. We are talking how the universe is able to consistently organize itself into a hierarchical sets of complex patterns, which humans have named physical objects. We are talking how the universe communicates with itself and chronicles its own dimensional and organizational measurements which are mathematical in essence.

http://umdberg.pbworks.com/w/page/58022275/The disciplines

 

Physical is not abstract

abstract
▸ adjective /ˈabstrakt /
1 existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence:
abstract concepts such as love or beauty.
▪ dealing with ideas rather than events:

Oxford Dictionary

Physical stuff is reality

Galileo Galilei wrote in the seventeenth century, "In order to understand the universe, you must know the language in which it is written. And that language is mathematics."

And mathematics was INVENTED so it came l o n g after the Universe had been operating by the laws of physics

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