Why are "religious" con men given free reign.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, May 11, 2020.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I look at the various religious leaders and I don't think that I am being unreasonable but there really seems to be a number who are just con men...it would seem that if these folk were not opperating under the guise of religion they would be treated as con men for knowingly defrauding people.
    Why are they tolerated?
    Alex
     
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  3. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    It may just be tradition .They are so engrained in society and swim in such a large pool that they are "too big to fail"

    Perhaps also ,we have seen the abject failure of political systems that actively tried to suppress religious observances and adherence that we have just thrown our hands in the air.

    Also perhaps the comic element of their behaviour may make them seem less serious than they are ...wolves in clowns' clothing.

    They can also be useful as when the then Pope was ,to my eyes instrumental in giving the USSR's fiefdom the final push in Poland.
     
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  5. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Reign in their own parish or network; rein in the public sector.
    All prelates are, and always have been, con-men. That is the calling: to convince the gullible to give up their autonomy, common sense and treasured possessions in awe of something invisible and implausible, based on nothing more than the preacher's word.
    I don't agree. Wall street is tolerated. The NRA is tolerated. Trump Enterprises is tolerated. Global banking conglomerates are tolerated. The Electoral College is tolerated.
    For the same reason: they're power-brokers.
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Any number of reasons. In my American perspective, the effort to absolutely shut down any number of religious leaders for fraud would not necessarily offend the First Amendment, but even such an idyllic parsing will end up disrupting any number of other interests. Given the real politics that can be described in behavioral economics, it is hard to envision how such an endeavor does not become a catastrophe unto itself.

    There is also a question of tradition, and on this point I would recall the Gay Fray, and the idea that attending the law somehow usurped the law because nobody voted for gay marriage, and then recall that at no time in American history did we vote for heterosexual marriage in any similar manner.

    But even after we sort all that out, it's kind of like the tinfoil conspiracists, upset about state surveillance real and imagined, but happy enough to let the private sector spy on them.

    It does come up↗ in discourse, sometimes, that atheism is no inherent guard against knee-jerk irrationalism; a question arises, much like the surveillance tinfoils, if one intends to countenance a general problem, or a particular variation. More directly, which nonreligious confidence swindles will we have to carve out accommodations for in order to go after religion and religious people and organizations while not disrupting whosever interests?

    And it's true I can run that rabbit to earth, such that, eventually, an atheistic argument will need to constrict what religion can be and say in order to protest the swindles.

    By and large, the answer to your question is at least partly so straightforward as Geordief↑ put it in that first paragraph. The second paragraph, though, reminds of the challenge. The abject failure of political systems is, largely, a failure of organized classism, which in turn leads back to questions of the general and particular.

    History being what it is—i.e., telling what it does—trying to untangle the skeins of interest can easily become futile obsession.
     
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  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks to everyone for your input.
    I now realise that my expectations of fair play are probably unrealistic and further that I have limited my view as to the predominance of con men in our world...I guess the religious con men are in my sights however thinking more it would seem evil is everywhere ( I know a casual generalisation but perhaps close enough to reality If we look for only a percentage expression in any group or industry).
    I have been watching poker on YouTube, and I have no idea of the rules let alone strategy, why I watch it I am not sure..maybe I feel like I am with people and enjoy the experience ...however it seems the game turns entirely on deception with the goal of taking another's cash using cunning which is rated as a skill. The game seems to reflect a world that I believed did not exist, for no other reason than I believe that it should not...it has hit me ..the world could be so much better...how I survived life bewilders me now that I look back..I never conned clients and thought my duty was to help others..these replies have had an enormous impact upon me..I think I understand why I am a hermit ...
    Thank you everyone.
    Alex
     
  9. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah we can all agree that would be scary. I think Jesus is legit but you need FAITH himself to decipher the bible how it was meant to be seen.
     
  10. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Why are they not treated as con men?

    Religion is based on faith

    They sell faith

    Hard to convict somebody selling faith when the business model is sell faith

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  11. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    It's my idea not to sell religion, but to rely on faith.
     
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    It's my understanding faith tends to slip or fade away when tested

    Testing includes giving better explanations of happenings usually attributed to god

    Or a person's faith in god is tested when said person comes up against a situation causing them to exclaim how could you god

    Their faith needs topping up with the good ol' priest explanations
    • part of God's plan
    • we are not to question god
    • and my favourite
    • god moving in those mysterious ways
    Add the cream
    • in a better place
    Top off with a cherry
    • you will be reunited one day
    Few things missing from the sales are
    • beeps as meaningless platitudes pass over the scanner
    • a bag (soul) to pack them in
    • a receipt
    • a warning ie individual results may vary

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  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I'll get back to you on that after I finish the book I'm reading.

    Still, we should note, of God's mysterious ways, that's an eighteenth-century poem from the depths of suicidal depression at not being able to marry his cousin, written for a hymnal compiled by a slave-trade captain given over to the Lord. And Cowper's 1774 poem, "Light Shining out of Darkness", which opens with the famous phrase, "God moves in a mysterious way", also ends, "Blind belief is sure to err, and scan his work in vain; God is his own interpreter, and he will make it plain."
     
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Didn't know that

    Does not matter God moves in a mysterious way has entered the religious meaningless platitudes go to tool box

    Perhaps we need a thread for theist to explain each platitude they trot out?

    I'll give you that, totally agree. Except if you mean by his work work done by god who, by my definition is non existent, it would logically follow, said work would be non existent

    So, to me, it appears blind belief has nothing to scan
    Very convenient. So not allowed to interpret (we are back with)
    As for he will make it plain, will that be - all makes sense now OR take it or leave it plain

    And when and where will this make it plain reveal occur?

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  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    You're really putting too much effort into it.

    You haven't met His Mother, yet, have you?

    I'd say, ask the poet, but, well, right.
     
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    I believe in love, and I also allow others to make input on offical dogma.
     
  17. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    Freedom of Religion--You can support any religious leader or group you choose in America. It is the individual's choice. If I find a spiritual guide interesting, I might buy his/her book. If I want to throw money at a good cause, I will donate to a local charity. There is a market for charismatic spiritual leaders, otherwise they would have no success.
     
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  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds wonderful..freedom of religion..what sounds better would be...freedom from religion.
    However as you say there is a market which of itself justifies the existence of a business that delivers whatever it is that the customer needs...there is a market for heroin and various markets that attract government regulation too protect the community but I can see after considering all the replies to my op that religious fraudsters are way down the list...it's a shame there is such a long list.
    Alex
     
  19. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    There are those who want to regulate religion, including the religious. I wonder though about the incentives of those who prosper. When people pay you to speak about God, are you not being given encouragement to double down?

    I think it is perfectly fine to practice your spirituality as you please. I'm just thankful to live in a culture where I can claim to be God and not be crucified the next day.

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  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Well you would and I understand that however not being into spirituality I think it is a wasteful pursuit...imagine how much more you could get from life without such nonsense impeding your progress..maybe you could have learnt the piano by now, (I downloaded an app with a key board and learnt how to play in an hour or so) if you learnt to walk without a crutch you may not be so slack that you smoke...I am sure you would be more in control.

    I find that excepting personal responsibility and realising that your actions are very much under your control gives one high self esteem ... I think the whole "You are a sinner" thing is so very wrong..first that such a presentation is made to exploit guilt and feelings of unworthyness but second that folk actually believe they are less than what they should be...and the demonisation of sex just produces people who are totally screwed up.


    I would like humans to be free of superstition and explore the next level which I think can only be better.

    Anyways it is what it is...I wonder how it goes on other planets with intelligent life...


    Alex
     
  21. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    The more spiritual I fall, the more appreciation I have for the simple things in life. I have also gained the added perception of seeing things from another angle, that perhaps Love is the catalyst for Life. If I can hold on to that sight, perhaps things will become better for everyone.

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    I think that we all have been raised feeling alien and separate from this Life and this World. You can blame religion for much of that, but science can also share some responsibility. The Devil hangs on to the past and threatens a future of doom. I'm telling you the past does not exist and the future is going to be great. Hold onto that last sentence.

    The assumption that you know better than they. I would like all of us to see each of us as we are: born from the same source, under the same sun, moon and stars, and each religion pointing upward. How foolish we can't see that.

    Do you suppose they have a sense of spirituality, too?

    Always a pleasure, Alex.
    May Life bring you tonight a sloppy wet dream that wakes you with a smile.

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  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    That's what I am saying but I suspect you meant "feel"...

    Rational thought just gets you to that place faster and with no baggage.

    I doubt it but certainly being careing and kind gives one higher self esteem.

    You certainly can blame religion. Stand back and look at what it tells you...it tells you that you will never be worthy and that the only way you can success is if god let's you..religion encourages a total abdication of belief in yourself...that is irrefutable.

    Science gives us real answers and leads us out of the confusion and fear introduced by religion..Science can not take any responsibility for the mess religion creates.
    In any event I don't see any justification for mentioning the two in the same sentence ..religion is already losing its power over humans and hopefully in a thousand years or so at most it will be studied in history classes much the same as we study voodoo or cannibalism..a mere curiosity of human history.

    There is no devil and please recognise how such a premise has you talking nonsense.

    So you want to be a guru which is no more than saying silly things and fooling yourself that you present wisdom..you do not...why do you want to ignore the past..the past is history..history tells us how current religion evolved from Sun worship and astrology...mmm I can see why you do not wish to reference the past as it can only expose current religious beliefs are no more than borrowings from astrology...the future will be great? Of course it will if you hold a positive attitude..even if 90% of humans die off because of the virus it will be great because 10% survived.

    I use positive thinking to manipulate reality. I would tell my children..if a shark took my legs I would crawl up the beach saying that I certainly had good luck as it only got one leg. Half empty half full ..best quantify the volume in ML for reality.

    I am all for looking at things in a positive light but one is much more able to be positive if one drops the notion that you are a wretched sinner and that all you have is only because some mythical entity allows it to be so....plus no self loathing for have natural sexual feelings or experiences...I had such a great sex life cause I never felt guilty that it was against gods wishes..what nonsense all invented by old men fearful that their wives might stray..no better than herd animals with one bull monopolising the females...the god invention is so transparently all about herd control.

    Considering my proven infallibility I say my assumption is probably valid...just think of how religion has held you back and will continue to do so and look forward to the sinking feeling that will grab you on your death bed as the realisation that your life was less than it should have been..that is when the truth will flood in and you will die feeling unfulfilled...trust me..get your head out of the clouds and live life to its fullest.
    Just write off the cash the cult has conned from you and be happy you woke up with some life left to live.

    How foolish you think that you are somehow being profound.

    You are drunk with the false euphoria that religion delivers, it's no better than the false high of drugs but these things take you away from reality and I say this the reality that I enjoy is wonderous and I suspect on a level you could not fathom, it is probably what you would want if you knew it existed.

    I have higher morals, I am kinder , and although you could disagree, more tolerant of people overall and most resilient in adversity, than those who are constricted to a narrow view of the universe as dictated by religion.

    How one could speculate but I can only say that I do not know and recognise that any speculation by me or you will only reflect on personal desire which is never helpful..that is the problem with all the invented gods as they merely reflect their human creators hopes and wishes.

    Thank you.

    I am disappointed that you think that way.

    Alex
     
  23. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

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    "fall" was intentional.

    Except for the issues with religion.

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    It's not done out of need for self esteem.

    I never said we can't learn from history, but that we shouldn't be slaves to it.

    I disagree, Alex. It's making me a better person.

    Is happiness false euphoria?

    Yet it is a common theme in human culture.

    Truth.

    I will spare your speedos and simply wish you a pleasant dream then. May your dreams be filled with loving warmth tonight.

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