Why Americans cannot discipline their children

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by arauca, Dec 22, 2012.

  1. arauca Banned Banned

    Why Americans cannot discipline their children. 48911.jpeg

    The ultimate reason that Americans are unable to discipline their children is that they have no authority over them. The American state, together with private industry, especially the "helping professions," have usurped their authority in loco parentis, thus empowering physicians, psychologists, judges, social workers, dentists and other health workers by, in effect, reducing people to parental incompetence. American children run amuck, throw tantrums in the "terrible twos" and "fearsome fours," and commit indignities against their parents and maliciously disobey them such as to shock the rest of the world. A Eda Leshan in 1985 published a book called When Your Child Drives You Crazy. Children's actual socialization comes from the ever-present baby sitter, television, and the school, neighborhood pals and their interaction at play.

    American parents are reduced to their entertainers, meal tickets and gift givers; in the U.S. the glorification of consumption and the warfare of status materialism see the parents constantly showering their "kids" with presents, all too often in place of true love and affection. The mother resorts to shrewishness and constant nagging to obtain minimal obedience from her children, while the deadbeat American husband and father has emotionally abandoned the family and takes little part in family life. A 1971 study by college psychologists of fathers in the Boston area found that they spent a grand total of 37 seconds a day on average spending time with their infants. Parents do not guide, comfort, govern, teach, nurse, control, restrain or mentor their children, although they are fond of giving them a good teasing now and then.

    more :http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/21-12-2012/123261-americans_children-0/
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Sounds like propaganda.
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    A new species of intellectual failure?

    Well, yeah. But it's a strange twist. I'm not surprised the reference points for the article are 1985 and earlier. It sounds like a weird, post-revolutionary reboot of late-'80s American conservative complaints about how parents weren't allowed to beat their children enough.

    I mean, the two paragraphs quoted in the topic post actually read like 1987. But around the fifth paragraph of the article, the author takes it in a rather strange direction, which sounds like the old Soviet-style anti-Americanism.

    Some manner of useful points went into the rhetoric, I think, but they're so badly mangled that it's hard to tell whether John Fleming is just a really stupid Marxist, or a provocateur trying to discredit some bizarre amalgamation of myths about Marxism the article seems nothing more than an egocentric rant.

    Interestingly, Fleming's Amazon.com biography includes this nifty tidbit: "I have also had a number of articles published on Internet web sites, including Russian Pravda, sikh.com and drudgereport.com."

    As it is, it would seem this particular article is at least quasi-promotional:

    I am also hard at work on my third book, tentatively to be called "Narcissism" Reconsidered: Moral Chaos and Social Disintegration in America, which examines the considerable social problems of American society. Although I use the psychoanalytic term narcissism, I reject that quackery as a bogus pseudoscience and will not employ psychoanalytic concepts except to dismiss them as worhtless incorrigible imbecility. Also, although I have been intellectually influenced by the late American historian Christopher Lasch's 1979 book The Culture of Narcissism, with its psychoanalytic basis, my book will not be repeat Lasch's Weltanschauung or in any way be a revival or revision of his book. Instead, "Narcisism" Reconsidered will treat parental incompetence, the high rates of divorce, crime, deviance, poverty, profiteering, greed, opportunism, self-display on national television, single-parent households, and issues such as a fatherless society, educational collapse and the consequent spread of idiocy, corporate-censorship of the media, the maldistribution of the wealth, undsiciplined children who run amock, class privilege, political corruption, undemocratic practices, the greatest obstacle to Americans' enjoyment of the Bill of Rights, this being the fascist goons on police forces, and many other massive social problems.

    It might well be that Fleming is in one of those classes of one's own, and there really isn't much of a polite label that would describe his unique intellectual species.


    Fleming, John. "John Fleming". (n.d.) Amazon.com. December 21, 2012. http://www.amazon.com/John-Fleming/e/B001HD32GI
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  7. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

    Arauca I couldn't agree more, the children in american society are like overspoiled rebels, with no self constraints and insurmountable self adoration and self value it is obvious to see why they cannot grow up into family oriented adults. Restraint is lost in such a society and the reality is apparent, children killing others in schools all over USA, and that is just what gets to the news. Behind the "American Dream" of money and materialistic virtues lies the harsh truth, the soul and morals are lost. These children of this country, they are lost too...anyone who dares think that growing an American child will somehow settle things out in the future are greatly mistaken, these children are faced with numerous of obstacles of moral free society and restraint free society as well as competition between the immigrants who come here. The only children who grow up to be decent men and women are those of immigrants who had brought the values of family and respect for the elderly and rules of society with them. Those who stay in USA and bring the children of their own are doomed.

    I am contributing to this thread topic.
    My life is my own opinion, respect it so I may respect your opinion.

    Tiassa, there is no need to quote paragraphs by the OP, just look at the statistics of the children of USA and see the faults by which they are raised.
  8. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    post was sent to moderator glitch / deleted
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
  9. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    I've been both parent and grandparent for over 45 years. I certainly do NOT believe in excessive corporal at all. However, I was left with no recourse and had to spank my two- and four-year-olds exactly four times (divided between 3 kids). What it came down to was the old axiom "you have to first get their attention." No amount of 'time-outs' or restrictions on toys, etc. can have any effect when one is pitching a non-stop tantrum and throwing toys.

    It made my point that I AM THE BOSS AND YOU *WILL* DO AS I SAY.

    I never had to repeat that action (beyond twice on one kid) and I glad I did it at that age until waiting - as many see to do - until they became MUCH older and practically impossible to manage.

    I've known MANY families over my years and I'm certain that several of them would not have had nearly as many problems with their teens if they had only dealt with them as I did when they were still young. Those were kids that I had known form birth and were completely spoiled until they were nearly grown - and by that time the mindset was fixed.
  10. kwhilborn Banned Banned


    @ Arauca,
    You were just painted into a corner on your "Family Relationships" Thread and now wish to find more support of your archaic child rearing techniques by starting a new thread.

    Remember this Opening Post you made?

    To which I have already responded,
    You obviously have made mistakes as a parent and are now trying to find like minded people to support your medieval child torture practices.

    You seem to want justification enough to start new threads on the same topic.

    YOU WILL FIND OTHER PARENTS INTO BEATING OBEDIENCE INTO THEIR CHILDREN IF YOU START ENOUGH THREADS, but that does not mean that your children should respect you in any form. Respect is always earned, and beating it in will just bring pretend respect.

    It seems obvious from your other threads on the exact same topic that you
    a) Endorse corporal punishments/spankings/belts or other methods of pain to "teach" children.
    b) You view "Time-outs" or known effective child raising techniques as solely American and therefore doomed somehow.

    One thing the American Society is good at is recognizing its mistakes. There was a time when America stood for slavery, and now there is a Black president. There were times when Americans lived by your motto "Spare the rod, spoil the child", but thankfully have learned from these mistakes.

    INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY SEEKING MORAL JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR BAD PARENTING HERE, why not pick up any number of child rearing books by award winning psychologists. It appears Dr. Spock s not have the only say when it comes to parenting.


    Here is some quotes from the above studies.

    This means spanking impairs cognitive development in children. It means your children have been harmed for life and you should be apologizing to them and not demanding respect from them. Cut off someones hands and then ask them to respect you. Maybe it is your understanding of the word "respect" that is completely messed up. Perhaps you are hoping they will "Fear" you, but now that they are big enough to spit in your face with no repercussions you are sad.

    You can start all the threads you like, but a fact is a fact. It will not alter because you will it so.

    Read a book or two on the subject. Your wonderful parenting has obviously backfired on you so you should be the LAST PERSON GIVING ADVICE HERE.

    @ Read only,
    Spanking each of your children once each is not really fitting with either arguments. This response was written and attempted to post before your post, but fell to moderator glitch. I am also sure (not saying it was bad) that you are close to a good example of raising children without corporal abuse.
    I myself recall almost daily spankings as a child during one point. They may have disciplined me enough to get an education, but I stopped speaking to both my parents over 20 years ago.
    I have three children whom were all breastfed until age of 2, they all started school at age of 4 months (preschool), and they all have never been hit by an adult. They are all smart, and seem above average in any categories I can think of.
    I would not consider spanking a child once as that sort of child rearing, although I am sure an alternate punishment could have sufficed with equal (not better or worse) results.
  11. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Authority to do what? To see to their education? To encourage them to be good people? To care for them when they are sick? To feed, clothe and shelter them?

    What does that mean? Requiring kids to get an education? Do you really think dentists are usurping parental authority over children?

    So if they had a day care center at the UN, you could pick out the American kids by their tantrums?

    Kids from that era are now grandparents. They are more likely to be the baby-sitters. What goes around comes around. Sounds like a grand-parental authority catastrophe in the making.

    Presumable true love doesn't include depriving the kids of adequate food, a safe and clean lace to live, and a positive attitude about life. Somebody sounds like they have a really bad attitude here, but it's not the kids.

    That term isn't even American. Oh, I get it. They just got the nationality wrong. They're probably talking about Russia, or Victorian England, or perhaps Spain during the Inquisition.

    Oh, they're talking only about families with this kind of problem. That's different.

    Are any of them still alive? What does ancient history have to do with the question?

    Except when they do which is almost always.

    Except when they don't which is quite often.

    Yes, whenever I want to read about recent sociological trends in America, I always turn to Pravda.
  12. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

    No no! You should watch CNN and FOX for the absolute truth about society in America. No deception, whatsoever.
  13. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    No, I would no sooner rely on either of those networks than on Pravda.

    But I wouldn't rely on news feed to learn about sociology or child educational psychology. I would just read sociology or child educational psychology. If I want to actually observe how people behave, then I try to live in the world around me, not to project it as myth, through the lens of bias, politics and propaganda. That's what arauca's post was asking of me.

    Social science involves science. I respect that. I would treat arauca's source with the same indignation if he was telling us that, according to Pravda, most Americans carry a trait for diabetes, or most Americans feel underpaid or most Americans watch TV. Several things: (1) Pravda is not a scientific source for statistical data of this kind, (2) it's too far removed from America to be able to analyze us, and (3) it's drenched in vitriolic bias that contaminates its reporting and disqualifies it from these type of questions.

    If you think it's reasonable to form an opinion about modern American kids by reading Cold War anti-American propaganda from Pravda, then all I can say is: what a weird, nutty, trippy position to take.

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  14. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

    I think statistics speak for themselves in terms of children.

    As for Pravda, you think the newsletter and media in USA have no bias against Russia, every day I read some sort crap and sarcasm that is meant to be a joke about Putin, vodka, the oil. US hands are stained with blood, hypocrisy lies deep within the constitution and actual practices, and yet the people follow blindly like lambs

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  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    At first I thought this thread was titled "Why Americans cannot discipline their wives" which would have been an horrific statement, but now that I see it's 'children' ...


    The entire notion 'Disciplining Children' is 100% completely wrong. I personally think this, and this alone, accounts for why we live in the dystopian society we presently live in. It also explains why voluntary exchange makes no headway with an otherwise reasonably minded person.

    While there may be very very very rare occasions where a human being may be born with some neurological disposition towards sociopathy - this really doesn't matter at all to how children are parented (not disciplined, but parented). Children should never be yelled at, never lied to, never hit. They should be spoken to with love and in a logical consistent rational manner. If you see a child who is "actin up", then you can take one look up at the parent and see the exactly where the fault lay. Of course, children forced to sit in neat rows and raise their hands like prisoners to ask to relieve themselves or have a drink of water can be forgiven for wanting to be *gasp* children. Children are extremely logical before having their heads filled with propaganda and superstition. Children are extremely curious, they WANT to learn. It usually takes 8 or 9 years of public pulp-mills to grind that curiosity out of them. Children mimic their parents. If you want your child to study math, then *gasp* YOU get your fat arse off the couch stop watching Dancing with the Douches on the Idiot Box and DO MATH. If you do math, they will want to do math. If you watch TV and stuff your face with shit between excursions to the mall. That's what they'll want to do. You want your children to speak politely and treat you with respect - then you speak politely to your children and treat them with respect.

    So, one more time, if you notice your children or other children acting in a disrespectful manner - you can thank their disrespectful parents.
  16. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

    In his usual polite manner with gratifying respect, Eric Smith (13) said, "“You may think I’m a threat to the well-being of society. And I can understand why you would feel that way. The fact is that I’m not. I’d be an asset to society.” right after strangling his four year old friend.

    Yet another polite boy Barry Dale Loukaitis (14) educated and well bred by his mathematically inclined parents, said “This sure beats algebra, doesn’t it?” right after shooting 2 students and a teacher.

    Do you not see the message in the air? Parents are just part of the equation to the well psychological being of their child...the other part is the society they live in.

    Dear Michael, as Mary Bell (11) once said, “Murder isn’t that bad; we all die sometime anyway.”... and it wasn't her parents who taught her this.
  17. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    “Parents can only give good advice or put them on the right paths, but the final forming of a person's character lies in their own hands.”
    ― Anne Frank

    “Your kids require you most of all to love them for who they are, not to spend your whole time trying to correct them.”
    ― Bill Ayers

    “Children are people, and they should have to reach to learn about things, to understand things, just as adults have to reach if they want to grow in mental stature. Life is composed of lights and shadows, and we would be untruthful, insincere, and saccharine if we tried to pretend there were no shadows. Most things are good, and they are the strongest things; but there are evil things too, and you are not doing a child a favor by trying to shield him from reality. The important thing is to teach a child that good can always triumph over evil.”
    ― Walt Disney

    “Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them.”
    ― James Baldwin

    “Educate your children to self-control, to the habit of holding passion and prejudice and evil tendencies subject to an upright and reasoning will, and you have done much to abolish misery from their future and crimes from society.”
    ― Benjamin Franklin

    "What a kid I got, I told him about the birds and the bees and he told me about the butcher and my wife.”
    ― Rodney Dangerfield
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    In some ways I find these stupid threads amusing. Currently I'm working as a carer for some quite complex clients including one who may well have Antisocial personality disorder and another who has the mentality of a 3 year old (if not younger). Hes a lot bigger than I am but can be controlled reasonably well using the same methods that are encouraged for children and guess what, there is apsolutly no need to hit him ever.

    Some of the people I work with come from the child protection sectors and work with kids who have been abused, neglected, are homeless and are hugely complex needs and again there isn't any need to hit them. I see you all whinging about "government intrusion" into your "parenting" (anyone who hits a child is a coward, not a parent) and yet the foster careers get on with more complex kids than many of you could DREAM of, with massive government oversight and all without ever hitting a child because its actually a condition of there foster caring that they can't
  19. arauca Banned Banned


    I understand you are social worker . You have to understand child abuse and correction , in correction you don't hit the child , there are many ways on how to correct the child and some are more severe then other , and at the same time punishment are different for different age.
  20. arauca Banned Banned



    I don't like to write to much: I come to this country in the 50 th. I have seen what the products of the new generation ( behavior ) in comparison to the generation that grew up in the 50 . I can see the children of new immigrants born outside of this country and I can see the behavior of the children second generation of the immigrants behavior were they have brought up with out encouraged discipline . There is definitively a difference . You and the one born here cannot see the past because you were not there.
    As for my sons , and their upbringing I talk to them every day, One was accepted to medical school who have a masted degree in biology were we encouraged him with a pitch fork to his back ( well disciplined ) and the other manages a business of more then 7 figure in a different town.
    I see a problem, Many kids are rot raised by their parent, Father and mother are at work for 9 hours , the kids are raised in pre school , then at home the upbringing is the TV or games on the computer . ( The description of your child been breast fed ut to the age of 2 years old , that will be a real selfish brat ) . By the time they reach an age of 10 they are playing war games and so on. by the time thy reach the age of 16 wow , they give you the finger and use the 4 letter words on you. I can tell you some more , for now that is good enough.
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    youreyes, I'm not quite clear on the rational for your post.

    I'm not quite sure how your post links to my statement you quoted.

    From my limited search it seems that Eric Smith was an ostracized child bullied by his peers daily including being hit in the head, spit wads in the face and etc... He had no friends and spent YEARS alone. When his grandmother passed away he also says he had no family support and with this death - lost it.

    School bullying is serious and shouldn't be taken lightly. Recently another young girl killed herself due to Bullying in another Lord of the Flies Government School. So? You going to blame her for killing herself? Or do you think maybe the bullying had a major role to play in her suicide.

    As for Eric, where the hell was his family? Why was he left in this horrible environment for years? Why didn't his parents get their child out of this child-mill soul-crushing environment? There is no way on this Earth I'd leave my child in such a horrid environment. Where was the teachers, the bus drivers, all the other people in 'society' in caring for this child.

    You don't think that if he was raised in a loving society that maybe he would NOT have done this heinous act? What? You think he was just born a "monster" and that's that? You don't think coming home EVERY SINGLE DAY in tears maybe does something to a small child? It must be nice to wash one's hands completely of all responsibility. For me every single person who saw this child being torchered on a daily basis and didn't lift a god damn finger share in the guilt. It's telling that not a single person in this community raised a single child that stuck up for and defended this kid. It's also telling just how vicious the other children were raised in this society gain such happiness at making another child cry day after day. Yes, what lovely children the other parents raised.

    Now, was he born with a predisposition towards violence? Perhaps. Perhaps so. And? That certainly doesn't mean he was destined to be a murderer. It sure as hell doesn't mean being hit by his parents, so-called 'disciplined', would have made him a loving better person.

    No, exactly the opposite is true. Kids who are have horrible childhoods AND are hit often become horrible adults. Not all, but many.

    Again, what is your point?

    From WIKI:
    So, we have another drugged-up child on Ritalin in a dysfunctional family, with a mother threatening suicide AND telling her own son he should also kill himself.

    Thank you society for not wasting the breath to breathe even the smallest of remorse for this poor child. No no, THAT would involve looking in the mirror and seeing the ugly sad state of society. Much better to convince yourself a "Monster" just appeared out of nowhere and when on a killing spree.


    You think maybe having dirty old men raping her at the AGE OF FOUR with her mothers God damn blessing... that maybe, just maybe, this had some small part to play in her becoming a murderer?

    Yes, people love this notion that these 'Monsters' just pop into existence as if their entire prior lives play no role at all in the horrendous acts of savage they commit. Like a spirit into a vacuum they just pop into existence. WHO in their sane mind think language is acquired as such? As if children *poof* suddenly out of no where learn to speak Mandarin ...without a lifetime of being exposed to it. Yet when it comes to murder, it's as if children *poof* just learn to be violent ..... without a lifetime of being exposed to it.

    And one wonders why my arguments for a voluntary peaceful free-market society fall on so many deft ears. I have absolutely no doubt why society is happy to sell Bonds on the children they "love" so much. To shove their children into Day "Care". Did you know 6 week old baby's are now taken into Day Supervision Centers..... SIX WEEKS OLD! ...and from there they learn everything ... yup, from there on until they're pushed into a Government Education Institution where they can have what's left of their innate love and curiously ground out of them in the Lord of Lies that passes itself off for 'education'. And everyone wonders why society is such a mess. No wonder so many people come to love the State and so readily swallow it's propaganda. The State has become their parent. Their mother. Their father. Their husband. Their wife.

    The State LOVES the very Monsters its creating. After all, living a life of Liberty in a loving voluntary peace-centered society would have no need of a State. And we couldn't have that now could we?

    Generation after Generation
    Rinse and Repeat
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  22. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    This (OP) article is spot on. I'm in Australia, and the situation is no different.

    I've brought up four kids, so I know the game well.
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Your parent's generation thought the same thing about your generation. Nothing ever changes.

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