Why? (A second attempt)

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by CHRISCUNNINGHAM, Dec 1, 2010.

  1. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

    If there is any pertinent question to the existence of a "God" it surely must be "WHY?".

    With this question one can get deeper into the qualitative value of something. So I will ask some "why's"...

    WHY did "God" create angels and heaven before he created man?

    WHY weren't these angels adequately equipped with free-will and a resemblance of "God" as man has been claimed to be created?

    If "God" did create angels with free-will WHY did he need to create man as well?

    WHY did god create men and angels(that quirk of so-called perfection known as Lucifer) with the propensity to want to BECOME "Himself" if he did not want them to want to become himself?

    WHY is it "God" makes his creations so terribly imperfect? In other words, WHY does he create Adam and Eve "perfectly" yet give them the ability to defy his will; if they were perfect wouldn't they have a very good sense of morality, one that even a child at age four could have? Basically, WHY couldn't Eve realize that when a talking snake tells you to do something that "God" tells you NOT to do, that you shouldn't do it? I mean, come on, a talking snake?! I thought Adam and Eve were adults, created "morally perfect", and yet they were COMPLETELY inapt to reason: "God says one thing, God is all powerful, God knows best, but this talking snake is telling me to do something that directly defies what God told us; I definitely don't think we should eat that fruit,"??!

    WHY couldn't "God" create Adam and Eve "morally perfect"?

    WHY couldn't "God" create Adam and Eve with the ABILITY to "sin" but the sagacity, wisdom,keenness, acuteness, morality, and overall maturity NOT to sin(especially when a talking snake tells you to)??

    WHY does "God" have a gender?

    WHY did "God" create ANYTHING at all?

    WHY is "God" so vain?

    WHY is it that I, an imperfect, sinful being(created in God's image of course), have enough confidence and self esteem that I would not, under any circumstances, want to be WORSHIPED for anything, no matter how "perfect and glorious" I was?

    WHY is it I, as an imperfect, sinful being(again, created in God's image) can reason that: even though I can kill a colony of ants by stepping on them, though I can give them shelter from rain, though I can focus light on them and singe them mercilessly, though I could drop a piece of bread and feed them for days, that I would NOT want to be worshiped by them because they are such simpler beings than me??

    WHY can't an infinitely powerful being reason in the same manner?

    WHY do placebos work so damned well?

    WHY don't people think before they act(worship)?

    WHY is it that when someone's belief-value system is questioned, rationally, and is found to be quite flawed in its very basic premises, and is found to be more propagandistic and mythical than anything else, that they will adhere to it, and with complete disregard for how much they are deluding themselves by doing so?

    WHY are so many men so weak, sickly, so pallid with disillusionment, so degenerate with a spurious and completely fantasized "purpose"????

    WHY is man AFRAID to be alone?

    WHY is "God" afraid to be alone?

    WHY do the inadequacies of an infinitely powerful "God" seem rather similar to the inadequacies of a terribly imperfect being such as man; in the manner of "jealousy" "vanity" "repentance" "short temper" and basically any other emotion one would criticize a human for having, but worship a god, an infinitely wise one at that, who has the very same attributes, and acts on them regularly???
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  3. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

    Why do you think any of those claims are true?
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  5. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    To the OP:

    WHY do you want to know?
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  7. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Why is this important to you?

    They indeed did and do have free will. satan was an angel who demonstrated quite clearly he had and has free will.

    Maybe to demonstrate something important to the Angels.

    What... Lucifer was good as he was, but wanted to be God and that’s where His free will caused Him to fall from His good state. The same happened when adam and eve wanted to be like God and joined satan in that vain pursuit.

    The created cannot become the Creator. The created will always be lower than the Creator therefore the created attempting to bear the burden of the Creator is doomed to failure.

    He made them good. But also gave them free will, they took this and chose to fall away from being good in a vain attempt to be gods.

    Whets the point of producing another living being without giving them free will. Can it be said that any true living being like mankind could truly be what we are without Free will?? Free will is a great thing.

    They never knew good or evil at the start and God said they where Good. Having understanding of Morality means you must understand Immorality. One cannot exist without the other.

    Because the enticement that attracted Lucifer to rebellion against God was the same enticement that satan used to attract adam and eve to rebellion. "You will be as God"... A lot of people still want to be God.

    No.. I don't believe they had morals.

    Peoples desires always leads them to do foolish things. Look at what greed is causing mankind to do to this world. Look at what the desire for power causes the worlds people to do against each other. Imagine the strength of the desire to be gods, what would that cause people to do. Rebel against the will of God maybe..

    Jesus revealed that just thinking of a sin is sin itself. Sin first happens with the thought, any physical acting out of that thought is just a sin played out.

    Well since there is only one God then what need does God have for gender? We call Him He because that’s what He revealed Himself as.

    Don't know.

    God cannot be vain. vanity is self deceiving pride, an over estimation of ones own abilities or importance. God is perfect so God cannot deceive Himself. He cannot over rate perfection.

    Do you think God wants to be worshiped because He lacks confidence? LOL

    Worship of God is for our benefit, Because worshipping God places His will high in our esteem and therefore to have Gods will high in ones esteem means we benefit most from the wisdom of His will.

    But what if the simple ants could be helped by having a bit of the knowledge you posses. What if by worshipping you they would enure that the knowledge you give them would be Kept and read from generation to generation providing a blessing for many generations to come.

    Cause He is way smarter than you. He has total situational awareness of all things. Pity the poor ant who vainly tries to figure Him out using ant logic.

    Well they don't always work.

    We do.

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    Because we know that the ant telling us how we are deluded has the intellectual and philosophical awareness of an inferior being. Trusting in God and His will is a far far far more certain and dependable course of action.

    Because they are human beings who came to the knowledge of Good and Evil. They could not and still cannot handle it. Indeed they where not designed to handle it. The current state of the world and humanity in general is testimony of this.

    I don't think i am. But then again i know i am never alone.. So maybe if i was an atheist i might suffer from this fear.

    God is not a man. People constantly try to bring Him down to our level in an attempt to understand Him.

    Once again God is not vain. And God is not short tempered He always gives warning of Judgement. God does not repent for He has not committed a sin. The only thing you have mentioned correctly is jealousy. He is jealous and possessive of His people. i don't mind having a possessive God, because He is perfect. Better to have a jealous and possessive God then a God who is indifferent and forgets you.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  8. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    You don't see the inherent contradiction there? You first state you believe your conception of your god is "perfect," then you go on to admit that your view of your god is possessive and jealous. Possessiveness and jealousy are flaws, they are not attributes of perfection sir.

    You need to search your soul, quit adhering so tenaciously to dogma written by ancient and fallible men, and instead listen to what is in your heart for truth. . . not what is in dusty tombs. . .

    The creator consciousness gave you a brain and consciousness. . . USE IT! Trust in yourself. . . not the prejudices of biased men with political agendas of centuries past!
  9. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    They are flaws in human beings because we are faulty. If a faulty person is possessive and jealous that’s not good. But if a Perfect being is possessive and jealous then that is good for the one He is jealous to keep.

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    What is written is perfect to move me to truth.

    And with that brain i have heard the Word of God and it is marvellous in my estimation. I hold it in high esteem indeed.

    All Praise The Ancient of Days
  10. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

    uh. . . . you DID know that the words in the bible were written by the hand of man?
  11. Yazata Valued Senior Member

    Maybe. But I think that there are more fundamental questions.

    What does the word "god" mean? What are we saying about X when we call it 'god'? What is the word telling us?

    How can we go about determining whether or not one of these 'gods' actually exists in reality? And for that matter, what kind of existence is a god supposed to have anyway?

    I'm going to skip the rest of your post. All of your 'why' questions seem to presuppose biblical mythology. As such, your 'why' questions represent theological difficulties, questions that arise in-house, within a tradition or belief-system, as a result of the various assertions and claims that it makes. They might be very real issues for Christians, Jews or Muslims, but they are kind of meaningless for those of us outside those traditions.

    I'll just say that if the word 'god' refers to whatever the ultimate source principle, the ultimate explanation for being itself is, then I don't think that the Bible provides any useful information about it. The ancient Hebrews probably knew even less about these things than we do today, which isn't very much. But at least we are able to conceptualize the philosophical questions in more sophisticated ways than the ancients could when they were telling their stories.
  12. woowoo Registered Senior Member

  13. jayleew Who Cares Valued Senior Member

    Focus Chris, focus!

    The answer to all your questions is: because it is God's will.
  14. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Inspired men, Inspired by God.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  15. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

  16. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

  17. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

    Ah yes. Life sucks and then ya die.

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  18. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

    i'll play..

    third time is the charm?
    two questions here..
    no free will,cause he created 'do as your told'
    resemblance..you think they have wings?
    angels do not have free will,satan is an angel, god allows him to act (see Job)
    who said he didn't want them to become?
    i believe the creation story is for us to see that we do have free will, that we can disobey god.
    by morally perfect, do you mean we dont make mistakes?
    god has a sense of humor..
    humans have assigned that to him..
    cause he got tired of playing with his self..
    all praise the ancient of chris!
    we must worship chris..or get stepped on!..
    his reasoning is better..we just don't always see it..hindsight see's it better..
    its all in yur head..
    great question!..
    short answer..cause its easier to 'do as your told'..
    the delusion is relative to whether ones belief is 'do as your told' or 'think for yourself'.
    not true..my house stays cleaner when i am alone...
    not all actions are caused by fear..
  19. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

    Hello all. Ha, I will get to your responses as quickly as I can, I just wanted to update that this thread was buried in the sciforums archives, and I decided to dig it up a bit, because it was never responded to directly as you have done here. So thank you for that much, it is well appreciated.

    Now on we go.
  20. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

    Do I think they're true or perhaps is it that the questions are inherently intended for those who do?


    It's important to me because I am constantly questioned on my beliefs at school, at work, in the streets, in general conversation.

    So, naturally being inquisitive, I decided to see what makes me NOT believe. Why, despite God's ever-powerful words and wisdom, I'm not buying it? Why a God perfect and infinite is somehow not strong enough or persuasive enough to convince a simple mind as my own of his existence, surely he wants me to be worship and love him unconditionally, surely he sent his only begotten son to save humanity not just a very select sample of humanity, surely he inspired the authors of the bible for me to believe just as he intended it for every other living human being who's come into being since the bible's inception. Why invest so much, wars, inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts, famine, plagues, death of the innocent, injury to the weak, unrelenting assault on the unarmed, if so little return on equity would come about, seems ineffective and imperfect to me.

    And me being a part of that humanity, an intellectual, a gentleman, a moral human, fully acting compassionately toward his brethren, surely he wouldn't want ME to be squandered on the wicked, what a waste of creation I am if such became true? I mean the murderous, the liars, the thieves, they've chosen their own path, but I am not of any kin to them, why must I join them in the fiery depths, what is it that I'm just NOT getting?! 82% of America seems to be on point, why did I fall so far from the tree.

    So, on top of these above questions I asked the ones in the Original Post, to get some insight to the whole bit of Christianity that turns me away. I started off a Christian when I was a child, my parents my grandparents my aunts and uncles, not an atheist among them, if they saw these posts they would gasp in disbelief. But when I was about 9 years old things started falling a part. My inquisitive mind finally showed itself. How did Noah's Ark fit all the animals? How did they spread all around the earth, why did God preach of love and compassion when so much death and stoning, and punishment was enacted on his creation. Why did he smother them with seas, and plagues, and locusts? If all he wanted was love and compassion? It didn't make sense, to a 9 year old. I asked the adults, surely they knew. But they didn't they said, "It's God's will. He wants it to be that way!"

    "Why?" I asked.

    "Because," they replied.

    And that was that. Nothing further no update, no referendum, I asked God too, and he said the same thing.

    "Because it is my will, My Son."

    That is what I heard, when I asked him Why again, he said, "I am God, it is beyond you to understand!"

    Then "Why am I expected to believe? Why am I asking these questions in the first place? Why have you created me to be so inquisitive, and ask so many questions, and expect actual answers if that's not what you'll provide? Why is my brain wired differently than mom and dad's and grandmas? Why am I the only one that's not satisfied, you made me this way right? to be inquisitive? Why should you forsake me if you made me expect more" I asked.


    And that was that.

    I remember this conversation quite clearly, was it the devil speaking to me? How was I supposed to know the difference? Has Satan outsmarted God, pretending to speak in his voice, making me as sure that I was talking to God as I would be sure when talking to my self in the mirror? All I wanted was proof, I was built to want proof, I wanted to be an astrophysicist since I was 8, since I knew there were other planets than earth, young and innocent, all I wanted was understanding. Did Satan trick me into being a scientist, was God so uncaring that he let Satan win over an 8 year old? Did Satan make me so inquisitive??

    You see I ask these questions because they're very important to me, it's the difference between eternal suffering, and Roads paved with Gold? Who wouldn't want the latter?! But what price must I pay?

    God gave me free will yes, did I choose to just ask questions and not be satisfied?

    Why is my brain not willing to accept 2^2=4 just because? Why does my brain have a propensity to want that extra bit of understanding, and be told 2^2=4 because it means 2 multiplied by itself is equal to 4, Thus 2^2=4. Why won't I just accept the answer 2^2=4 Just because?

    I didn't wire my brain to want ANYTHING, God did. I didn't make my brain desire some things more than others, God did. I didn't put the neurons in their synaptic connections to reason the way they do, God did, I have no control over why I reason things the way I do, I can't consciously say "hey brain, make me a sinner" if I actually don't WANT, inside my brain, to be a sinner, can you? Can you tell yourself to do something you don't TRULY want to do? Can you stab yourself in the eye if you don't really WANT to? Can you will yourself to do something you don't will to do? Can you outwit God's creation and say "Hey Brain, forget about all this Christian nonsense! Brain, I don't want you to take any more leaps of faith, I don't want my heart and soul to feel God all around me, I don't want to be saved, let's just drop it off, and try something new!" Can you reprogram your desires on your own?! Does God help you reprogram your desires? Does the bible?

    Now I ask, what about your desire for the Bible and God to help reprogram your desires, how does THAT desire come about?!

    You just said "I want God, I want to worship and love him, I want him to take me into his light and guidance? I want him to take me to the heavens!"? What willed you to WANT this? I wanted this, I was 9 years old, what else could I ask for than eternal happiness?!

    What part of your brain was more efficient than mine in believing that God's guidance is a good, strong, reliable idea? Was it inherent? Did you just will it to be that way?! Why can't I just desire for the Bible and God to reprogram my desires? Is it my fault? What's the secret to avoiding this catch 22?

    There is much more to say on this, but my firefox crashed, and I will have to reproduce it at a later time. But, in the mean time, dig in!!
  21. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

    N/A. The life form in question does not exist and therefore performed no such action.

    N/A. The non-human life forms in that question do not exist and therefore don't have those attributes.

    N/A. The non-human life forms in that question do not exist and therefore don't have those attributes.

    N/A. The non-human life forms in that question do not exist and therefore don't have those attributes.

    N/A. The non-human life form in that question does not exist and therefore no such actions could be performed.

    N/A. The non-human life form in that question does not exist and therefore no such actions could be performed.

    N/A. The non-human life form in that question does not exist and therefore no such actions could be performed.

    N/A. The life form in question does not exist and therefore has no such attribute.

    N/A. The life form in question does not exist and therefore performed no such action.

    N/A. The life form in question does not exist and therefore has no such attribute.

    Your premise is incorrect. Sin is not real. The non-human and non-ant life form in those questions do not exist and therefore you are not "created in it's image". That aside, the answer is that being worshipped conflicts with your values.

    N/A. The life form in question does not exist and therefore has no such capability.

    Because the anticipation of an effect primes a persons neural pathways to process an experience as if the placebo was real.

    They do. The thinking happens subconsciouly most of the time.

    Because people's beliefs and values are closely tied to their identity and most people would prefer to not have the experience of having their identities crushed.

    Why do you think this is the case?

    Because humans don't like the idea of "purpose" not really existing outside their own minds.

    N/A. The life form in question does not exist and therefore cannot attain that emotional scenario.

    Because humans anthropomorphize. We place human traits on non-human entities. That is why we have:

    Bugs Bunny
    Mother Nature
    Father Time
    The Grim Reaper
  22. CHRISCUNNINGHAM The Ethereal Paradigm Registered Senior Member

    Haha thank you Crunch, but your post, it wasn't directed toward me, correct? Ha...perhaps you should read my previous post.
  23. woowoo Registered Senior Member


    These are all archetypes, atheists often confuse them with the material entities
    and imagine religion is the worship of the physical deity such as Bugs Bunny.:worship::worship:

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