Political intrigue destroyed the Chinese explorative phase, a change of imperial dynasty meant that exploration stopped and when the explorers returned they were locked up and executed. Thats why the discoveries were never exploited, the Chinese believed that China was the centre of the world, and there was nothing else they could learn or gain from abroad.
as I said before, if the chinese had had any contact with the New World peoples, they would have left Old World diseases, rats, (especially legends of the dragon ships by the California Natives, don't you think?)
Interesting point about the rats. I can actually see the possibility of the crew being healthy and not carrying disease. But rats? I doubt if they could have left them at home... It might be possible that very few ships actually crossed. And those that did might not have planned to. Therefore they wouldn't have enough supplies and might very well have been hunting and eating those rats before they reached land. Is it also possible that the rats from one or two ships wouldn't have the genetic variability to survive inbreeding long enough to survive? Very good point. Rats...
Most of the discoveries were the work of one man, who i have forgotten the name of, and its very doubtful anyone else came after him. He didnt stop much and there was no trade, probably no human contact. There was no one to give diseases to, no time for the rats to get off the ship, and no where to go afterwards anyway!
ahh, no man can sail a ship by himself, halfway across the world, 'He' may have been good, but not that good. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! read the sources, there were merchants on board read history, every part of the West Coast had Native Aborigines Huh? which probably means, that the Chinese never made it here funny, how they managed to contaminate most of the Pacific Islands you obviously have never been to California, the reason so many people love it, is because it reminds so many people of home. High mountains, low hills, big valleys, natural ports, SF Bay would have been an excellent outpost, why do you think so many Chinese ended up there? read this: http://www.international.ucla.edu/ccs/article.asp?parentid=10387 Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You understood what i meant silly boy! He did have a crew. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But not in close density, the population was tiny compared to the space. Its feasible that you could land and not meet anyone. The pacific islands arent as far away, they probably went back and forth. Or if you mean Europeans, they stayed around with the specific aim of finding new territory to colonise. Alot of the Chinese there now, left throughout the early 20th century to escape famine and war, neither of these were prevelant in the 3rd Century AD or whenever it was. And like i said, the Chinese werent interested in the outside world by the time this explorer got back. Captain Cook didnt found many colonies, outposts, whatever, he left that to those following him. And why would they want to found a colony, theyre not going to be attacked from there, and China has all the resources the Chinese need.
interesting. Do you know the creation stories of the Hodenoshonee? Or the Hopi? Both specifically suggest that their ancestors lived somewhere else, then arrived in their current area. The Hodenoshonee through a tear in the sky, and the Hopi from one island to another across great distances of water... Native Americans had grand earthworks - both north and south of the Rio Grande; the Incan and Mayan cities to the south, the Anasazi people in the south west of North America, the Oswego to the North East of North America; the face of both North and South America were changed by them all. Not only through land works, either. The large mammals were most certainly hunted to dangerous levels; if the extinction of the North American Mammoth was not directly due to the Native Peoples, they certainly played a large part in their disappearance. Plants from Central America were brought north via trade routes, shells, stone and fish from the coasts were brought inland the same way. Ecological boundries were contaminated constantly by traders. Then came their reckoning. from the Grand Incan cities to the enormous nations of the north, populations dove. In the Southern cities, evidence of over-farming of the lands surrounding the cities suggest famines; the studies of bones from all over the area suggest great sicknesses. Much of the populations north and south of the Rio Grande died. Cities were abandoned relatively overnight. And the religions changed. You don't see massive buildings whose sole purpose is the human sacrifice of thousands; you don't see the vast clearing of forests, or the outright slaughter of animals. The plagues and famine which appears to have culled the NA population, also caused a major sift in how those people lived. they specifically balanced themselves with the world around them. They lost their written languages, and traded them for sustainability. Sun gods gave way to great mysteries, and divine kings gave way to councils. Holy orders studying the paths of the stars gave way to medicine men who called on the stars for curative help. Around the same time that Europe was trying its best to use medicine to save it’s culture from the Black Death, Native Americans were re-building theirs. Some remnants of the Great Incan cultures were still around when Spain first arrived in South America, but most of it was already gone. The codices were burned, the people killed, and the land taken. The Native Americans didn't become anything other than human during this transition from great builders to balanced peoples, though. They remained an overall violent people, certainly not at peace with their surroundings. They fought continual wars, were master butchers of both animals and men. They kidnapped and raped members of opposing tribes, massacred entire villages, including women and children if it so suited them. They fought wars for land, for food, for grudges; later for horses or guns. They did, however, produce great techiniques for sustainable agriculture, for rotating crops and co-planting species that could help each other grow. They developed fairly functional medicinal practices, and also held on to alot of the old knowelgde; paths of the stars, irigation of farmland, etc. The Native Americans were the first North Americans; most likely a people built with bits from Northern Asia via the Bering Land Bridge(at least two emigrations, one which lead to the current Canadian and north western peoples, and a second which lead to the Inuit population of the more northern reaches), Bits from Europe and Scandinavia via Greenland (traces of North American Plants found in Viking burials, evidence of blond and red hair in some NE tribal groups at the time of European contact), bits from Polynesia via boat (west coast cultures, though there is evidence that Polynesian cultures reversed migrated from NA to Hawaii, New Zealand, etc), from Africa via boat (Olmec culture; Hopi ritual, art, and language). Some good info is available here: http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Chumash/EntryDate.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/8919/ (ugly site colors, but the info is worth the eyestrain) http://www.crystalinks.com/olmec.html (note the i-ching like method of counting) http://www.angelfire.com/tx2/ecc/olmec.html#resources (many links) http://www.usu.edu/anthro/origins_of_writing/olmec_writing/ and completely off topic, a cool site I found about a guy riding a motorcycle from Alaska to the southern tip of South America: http://www.netvista.net/~rasmus/index.htm as for the idea of Rats: that is a very good thought. I don't know if anyone has done a study of rat species in south/western North America between the 700-1600AD time period, but it certainly sounds like a good idea. If anyone feels like funding a paleozoological expedition to mexico/costa rica/panama/columbia/ecuador/peru/chile, I'll volunteer my time Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
for the chinese to have been here first, asian DNA rats would have beaten the european DNA ones, guess that Norway & Ship are the two species world-wide
not sure that the Natives knew what genocide meant, what pestilence meant, they had no idea that they had just let in the devil & the whirlwind
Hum, i think that recent mitochondrial DNA mutations from americans have shown that there were multiple crossings of the Bering Strait ,10,000-15,000 years ago, 15,000 - 25,000, perhaps even 25,000-40,000 years ago (either towards the beginning or the end of the last Ice Age)... But, i don't think that any one here has mentioned the Solutrean Culture from northern France who undoudtly had the technology/ opportunity and skill to `discover` America.... http://www.geocities.com/blobrana/features/american.htm
There are temples of the 7th century in China which use Californian Redwood in their construction How do you think it got there?
don't just throw facts out there, provide a link or source. & are you sure they were not extinct chinese redwoods? BTW, "chinese redwoods", I just made that up, don't look that up Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
America...from Americus; Latinized form of the name of Amerigo Vespucci (1451- 1512), Italian explorer who navigated the coast of South America in 1501 'America' is a social construct...it was created not discovered... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It's a question of boundry. If you are asking which modern homo sapiens culture advanced their knowledge of geography to include the americas it would seem that many may have done so. Although even now we (world culture as a whole)has mapped earth from space there are still new places being found underwater and underground. There are numerous ways to approach the question. The catch is that a "scientific" reality may be the most accepted reality in the modern era. The thing is though that there have been numerous cultures with their own creation theories. Carbondating etc.. of course may not agree with a number of creation theories. What is real? Does magic exist? Is the world even round? Some cultural ideas especially closer to their formations may contradict the "modern scientific" beleifs. Science of course is theories but heck am I using esp or broadband to communicate this? It could be verywell that those that first set foot in the americas left no recognizable traces? How do we even know that we evolved? If evolution exists then why couldn't we have been from outerspace? Of course the most common story is often the most beleived story.. I could site a few different past beleifs of various world religions which arn't to commonly beleived today so it seems. Of course being branded a crackpot when one opposes the obviously accepted and perhaps physically dominant cultures afterall science built a-bombs no? It seems south america may have been populated independantly from north america however it seems more likely that an early wave of migrants went along the coast from north to south america. Back then there wasn't that much difference in culture. Even language is said to have been fairly uniform as far as I know. All in all were all human every individual is a distinct point of culture. Of course big blocks of culture are often clumped together like apples all together. Really knowing who the first homo sapien to see the land of americas is going to probably remain a mystery unless he lived and is living an extremely long life. Didn't you know the world only started in 1980? It's all lies.. but really. My gosh I just discovered the americas!! Anyone can say they discovered something as long as they didn't know it was there first. I think the most interesting point is that the entire world may have been largely mapped befor "early civilization" developed. If science is real why not other life if other life is real why not aliens? Oddly the americas seem to have tales of multiracial or multicultural groups. Along with wonders like the pyramids you also have My geuss is that eventually TIME may stop being linear and when that happens the idea of ALPHA OMEGA and multiple demensions may come more into play. The more crack you do maybe the more sense it will make, but really. It seems that between 30 and 15k bc the first eurasian tribes migrated via beringa. Up to as long ago as 100k bc there may have been seagoing explorations. Out of africa seems to be one of the most beleived theories however it seems to be becmoing dated. It seems pretty convincing that "advanced" civilization was in south america 15kbc also the sandia people. However there have been finds which predate the clovis in other areas of the americas. I'm not sure if all my information is correct but it seems plausable that there were homo sapiens in the americas between 100 and 50k bc however little or no traces are left of these early explorers. Of course in 100kbc modern homo sapiens is said to have been appearing in ethiopia, going any earlier then 100kbc seems to be predating However from 150kbc there were migrations in europe africa and asia of course building a boat that can traverse the distance. It's estimated that aborigines used boats to Aborigines are thought to have crossed the Torres Strait from New Guinea to Australia as early as 55kbc. which is "only" around 75km This not to say that other boats wern't around earlier then that of course surviving a long sea trip is pretty extreme. I'm not totally sure. I can say that it seems OBVIOUS that there were humans here between 15k and 10kbc. In the case of the south americans in 15kbc they acheived some pretty remarkable achievements. However it should be clear that both science and history are theoretical stemming from a beleif in layers and layers of interactions and perceptions, much like ones reality. Perhaps a more important question might be what can we do with it? we being imporant. Zunga? zunga? *end long drawn out rant*
whoever was here would have left evidence, not like the 'Book of Mormon' peoples that supposedly founded & destroyed several continent-wide civilizations that left no evidence whats-so-ever. the evidence is there waiting for the archeologists, linguists, botanists, geologists, geneticists, etc... perhaps the more important question is why peole feel that the Americas needed to be 'discovered', when there were people here for thousands of years? Could it be a racist mindset, that never believed that the land belonged to the natives? has anyone yet 'discovered' China or England? I should go soon, claim all for Mexico, before anyone else realizes that no one has done so already. Have to get rid of all those pesky English & Chinese though, have to start afresh; conquer, convert, subvert, re-build in our image, re-name them "Nuevo Mexico" & "Nuevo Aztlan". yes, if it was just one or a few, the weak or diseased would have died prior to getting near to other tribes, then been absorbed into whatever tribes were there
