Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by moementum7, Aug 10, 2006.
Does anyone else realize that people are having a lot better luck retrofitting standard cars?
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You would probably have better luck with that if you employed 500k people.
Who killed the electric car?
Instead ask, who stands to profit from preventing an electric car onto the market?
Do you really think that car companies would decide not to sell electric cars simply because oil companies asked them not to?
Its definitely a possibility. You dont think car and oil companies work together? (hell they are probably owned by the same people 5% own 95% of wealth)
Why do you think we have only just begun to increase gas mileage in our engines, weve had this capability for decades.
I don't really want to go over it all again, but if you read through this (admittedly very long) thread you will find explanations of why the EV-1 wasn't really a very good car and why it isn't at all surprising that GM didn't continue the program. To sum up: it only had 2 seats, a 100 mile range, and took eight hours to charge. Even with those limitations, the EV-1 might have found a market with people who only wanted a car to commute to work or something...if it hadn't cost $38k. That high pricetag more than cancels out any gas savings; you could buy a regular small sedan (that will still be a lot bigger than the EV-1) for around $10k, budget $18k to buy more gas than you are ever likely to use in the life of the car, and still end up paying $10k less than the price of the EV-1. With the exception of a few die-hard environmentalists, no one is willing to pay thousands of dollars more for a car that does a lot less.
Just a quick extension on my earlier comment that GM offering a 10 warantee on the batteries does not impress me at all: Some where (forbes I think) I read that GM sales for August were at a 16 year low. Perhaps it would be interesting to make a poll to see how many think GM will even exist in 5 years? I seem to recall reading that GM stock hit a 40 year low a few months back. Some others obviously share my concern about those 10 year warantees.
Technically its ten years OR 150,000 miles, but I'm guessing the only folks buying at forty thousand dollars will want the very latest thing in electric drive four years down the road.
Perhaps in ten years everyone will be driving diesel made from coal...in a super efficient (74mpg) Volkswagon:
If GM does go under (after numerous bailouts)...GASP...what a blow to the American ego!!!
Apple pie, baseball and Chevrolet.
So today was the big day in Detroit for GM to celebrate its 100th anniversary with the grand unveiling of the production Volt design, and I must say it does look better than a Prius, or the new Honda Insight.
Not as distinctive as the concept, but this is indeed a good compromise between aesthetics and aerodynamics.
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GM Formally Unveils the Production Version of the Volt
If you pay $50 a week for gas, that is $200 a month which is less than the payments for a new gas-saver.
it depends how how much you commute, lets say you travel an average of 30 miles a day in a car that gets 30 miles to the gallon and gas prices are at $3.50. Your paying $3.50 a day, $105 a month and $1260 a year. Now lets say your using a PHEV or EV, that cost $.02 per mile, or $.6 per day, $18 per month, $216 per year, this means with a PHEV or EV you'll be saving $1044 a year. The price of a PHEV is estimated at $8000 greater than a regular car, but government tax incentives for PHEV (depending on presidential candidate is $5k or $7k) so the EV will pay for it self over a regular car in 3-1 years!
A PHEV (like the volt) will run gas 25% of the time (25% of commuters will need to go longer than the battery range of 40 miles) so in actuality you might end up spending $477 a year with a PHEV, so this means you save only $783 per year, so it will take you 33% longer to recuperate the price over an EV... Big woop at least you won't be stuck recharging when the batteries run dry.
Except that the Volt is expected to cost around $40k, which blows the economics all to hell even with a $7k tax credit. Going with your above figures for a person who drives 30 miles/day and has a car that gets 30 mpg, that would be $1460/year in gas if gas is $4/gallon. You can easily get a nice 4-door sedan that gets 30 mpg for $15k. If the Volt is $37k and you get a $7k tax credit, that still means it will take you about ten year to save any money. And actually it's a lot worse than that, if you factor in interest on the larger car loan.
Most car loans are 5 years. The Volt is about $40k-$30k depending on what the final price turns out to be and what sort of government incentives are available. Even if we go with the low end estimate and assume $30k, you'll be looking at something like $500/month, assuming you have a really great interest rate.
If it cost $40K, we don't know what is going to cost, and there are many sedan's that sell in the 30-50k range, luxury sedans, the volt may have to compete against them, before battery prices drop to make a $15K PHEV profitable. Also if gas ends up $5, $7 a gallon or just plan fuel shortages, than having a PHEV could pay off far FAR greater.
Well, I'm just repeating what Chevy is saying it's expected to cost. And yes there are $30k-$50k luxury cars, but the people who buy those have already decided that they are willing to pay a whole lot more for a car than they have to and aren't worried about saving money. Also, I doubt VERY much that the Volt will be competitive with up-scale luxury cars. At that price range you're talking about things like BMWs, Jaguars, etc.
I have no doubt that EVENTUALLY this sort of car will be competitive in price, but we don't seem to be there yet. When $15k PHEVs go on sale I promise I will be one of the first ones in line.
That like saying a Tesla Roadster is not competitive with other hotrod sports cars, and that it should not be backordered like it is. Fact is that a EV or PHEV has a market and is competitive with other cars of it price range simply because other cars don't have the novelty or green ideology of alternative drive train. How many rich people bought or are considering a Tesla roadster over a high price sports car simply because they wanted to "be green"?
A $15k PHEV is never going to hit the market unless someone buys the $40K ones, it an economic catch 22, someone needs to fund to make the factors to produce more products and reduce the price of the products so more people will buy funding more factors (feedback loop). Might as well say that Blu-ray will never happen because no one is going to buy it at a high price price.
I'm sure some people will buy them. I'm just saying that you can't actually save money with on at the moment. Of course some people will buy it anyway because they're willing to pay $20k extra to be green, or have the latest gadget, or whatever. But at the moment buying one doesn't actually make economic sense.
Many cars today like the Prius is a ultra low emission vehicle only producing less than 1 percent pollution. So why go to a electric car costing twice as much when this car as well as others will give you better milage and you will be "green".
You can save money on it verse the equivalent car, it like people that can afford to install a geothermal pump. So it makes economic sense it just your comparing the wrong class of vehicles: I might as well say that a 4-door car should not be economical verse a motorcycle.
Because the prius still sucks gas, global warming is not the only concern so is peak oil. Also the emissions standards do not include CO2, just NOx,SOx and particulates: A prius produces about 70% as much CO2 as a regular car but only 1% the NOx and particulate emission of a regular car.
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