Who has witnessed this 'evolution'?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Mathers2013, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    On the contrary! It appears that there is a correlation between the amount of sleep and the level of evolution. The more evolved you become, the more you seem to sleep. That implies that there is a semi-conscious process of evolution that happens while we are sleeping.
     
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  3. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Vegetables certainly evolve faster than animals, don't they....? May be related to the level of complexity and direction of evolution related to the food chain...
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps God is simply a consciousness, which does not possess our likeness, though it is like us in that it can affect its environment through intermediary means. So, for instance, we have to use our hands to physically shape our environment, whereas this "God" this higher level of consciousness which are are not aware of, would use other means to interact with its environment; means such as geology and biological evolution.

    The problem is that there is no way to prove that there is a higher level of consciousness which we do not yet possess which can shape the environment by means which we are unable to, because the argument implies that we simply cannot observe this level of consciousness due to our lower level of consciousness, unless of course we were to increase our level of consciousness, which would cause us to pass on to the "higher side" and lose contact with the lower level. As you can see, there is no way for the two levels to communicate and, thus, such hypothesis cannot be scientifically proven (though the interactions may be inferred by the data).
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Or that our brains use so much more food than lower animals that we need to be able to go to a "low energy state" for half the day so we don't starve to death.
     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Not true. Cats and dogs are surely at the same level of evolution, yet cats sleep quite a bit more than dogs.

    One of the most important functions of sleep is to give our brains a chance to organize and correlate the things we have experienced and observed during the day. This only happens during REM sleep. This is why there was a quantum improvement in our ancestral species' interaction with the universe when the technology of controlled fire was invented around 1.5MYA, allowing them to sleep longer in safety.

    In other words, sleep is one of the drivers of intelligence. Missing a night's sleep causes a 10-point drop in IQ.

    So pulling an all-nighter to study for a big test is likely to be self-defeating.
     
  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Certainly, sleeping is likely only one aspect of evolution, not a single determinant.

    But I wonder... is there a correlation between brain size and amount of sleep?
     
  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The size of the modern human brain is unique, leaving very few for comparison. The next largest is the chimpanzee, whose forebrain (the part that matters in this discussion) is only about 1/4 the size of ours in relation to body size.

    Nonetheless, the catalyst for our longer sleep cycle (hours of REM sleep inferred from the cleverness and complexity of the tasks performed, as reconstructed by archeology and anthropology) is clearly safety. The technology of controlled fire (approximately 2MYA although there's little agreement on that) let our ancestral species sleep longer because it deterred many of the predators. Domesticated dogs took it even further by standing watch for us and chasing them away (or eating them). Both of these technological advances (the domestication of animals is a technology, as is the cultivation of plants, which arose around the same time, ushering in the Agricultural Revolution--or Neolithic Era, the "late stone age") correlate with quantum improvements in the quality, intricacy and collaboration of the tasks performed.

    Yes, whales have huge brains but you have to scale a brain in proportion to the body it inhabits, and by that measure ours are still bigger. In any case, the cetaceans have a unique way of sleeping: each hemisphere takes a turn while the other one keeps the body surfacing at regular intervals to breathe.

    I've always wondered, when a hemisphere awakens, if the other one takes a few minutes to bring it up to date on everything it missed while asleep.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Sleep is not a low energy state of the brain - being awake is energetically more profitable on the margin for people, because their bodies use less of their total energy consumption.
     
  12. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    You will need to provide several citations to justify this assertion. It is true that a well developed central nervous system is required in order for sleep to take place. That is quite different from the statement you have made and for which I see little or no evidence for in the natural world.

    Others have cited the contrast between cats and dogs. I would note that other factors are the primary controls. Apex predators, for example, may sleep more, since they are in little danger from others. But what is the sleep pattern of polar bears when they are not hibernating? Social animals can make use of others as guards. The issue is complex, but even if there is a correlation between the two, this does not mean causation.
     
  13. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Mathers2013: Do not confuse the Theory of Evolution with the facts of evolution.
    The series of fossils from eohippus to modern horse & the fossils associated with Hominid evolution from early primates to Homo Sapiens (us) provide the facts of evolution.

    The facts cannot be denied. To refute the theory requires an alternative cogent explanation.

    Do any evolution deniers have such an explanation?

    BTW: To me it is a shame that so much money was spent on the creationist museum in Kentucky. There surely were more worthy projects.

    When changing channels I quite often encounter a tele-evangelist making a pitch for money. It reminds me of a line from Star Trek.
    I ask:
    BTW: Kirk delivered the above line, but the script writer should have given it to Spock.
     
  14. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    I agree, I need more research if I am to prove my hypothesis, but I don't see it as a complete hypothesis either, because there are too many factors involved, as you have mentioned. I will need to take more factors into account before forming a complete hypothesis. Perhaps there is a correlation between evolution and more sleep, but perhaps it is a specific form of evolution, namely an intellectual evolution. Because we are less in danger at any given time, our brain has a greater chance of developing intellect. The progression, given the information we have exchanged so far, is probably physical -> social -> intellectual. With each progressive level, there is a greater development of the brain. But remember of other factors too. Bears won't develop intellect because their hibernation requires a complete shut down. Think of it as the difference between sleep and hibernation modes in a computer. Their bodies are trying to survive for a very long time, during the whole winter, and there is not enough energy to make new connections in their brains.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Regarding the OP, we have all witnessed evolution as we have all witnessed erosion.
     
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Money is nothing more or less than a record of an exchange of goods and/or services, specifically one in which the exchange does not happen all at once, and/or which takes place among multiple parties who are not necessarily all personally acquainted.

    God needs to keep records when he's dealing with us because, unlike him, we don't have perfect, infinite memories.
     
  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Stop that.
     
  18. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    A real test of correlation would be simple enough to do.
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    You can prove a hypothesis true beyond a reasonable doubt. This is how it becomes a theory.

    Unfortunately, most scientists have crappy communication skills (especially when talking to laymen) so they also use the word for things like "string theory," which is nothing more than a bunch of really cool math augmented by a lot of arm-waving.

    Once a hypothesis has risen to the rank of a theory, it's beyond the skill and knowledge of virtually all laymen to falsify it. It took an Einstein to find the weaknesses in Newton's Laws of Motion. Well, an Einstein, and a bunch of cool new technology that hadn't been invented in Newton's pre-electronic era.
     

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