Who designed the designer?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    11,594
    I can see how and why you would think that.
    But it's not true.

    Why not?

    You keep saying God, now Jesus, are fictional characters, as though it is true.
    How do you know?

    So everything is made up?
    Is anything true? If so, what?

    With the exception of Jame Barrie's Peter Pan (and pots and pans), can you state when, and by who, goblins, fairies, and big foot were made up?
    The thing is, Alex, I know you can't really answer it, and you're just going to keep on avoiding it.
    You just say they were made up, but you don't know. As such, your proposition is based on atheist dogma, not reason.

    I don't know what you're talking about.
    But more importantly, you don't know what you're talking about.

    Jan.
     
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  3. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Why not?

    That's not the Pont. If something begins to exist, mean it wasn't there before, then Kazam, it now exists.
    Do you think it is possible that it came in to being by itself, without any casual agency?

    Because it was created,

    Create; Bring (something) into existence.
    Cause (something) to happen as a result of one's actions.

    Jan.
     
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  5. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    My views are probably similar to your own but like some with differing views I don't think constantly referring to "turtles" is helping you make your points.

    I haven't read the back history enough to even know what you are talking about but I'm quite sure you could easily make your point without the constant use of "turtles" and it would be a lot less annoying.
     
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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    It's possible that the universe has been here forever and that the concept of what came before the universe has no meaning. Infinity is a hard concept to accept (for me) but it's possible.

    If that's the case then the universe may have always existed. If there is such a thing as God, God could have always existed as well.

    If the universe was created, then something came before (it seems to me, you could even argue about this I suppose). If there was no infinity, then a God would have to be created as well.

    Therefore, there is no argument involving God that couldn't be made without invoking God.

    The only "silly" argument is that everything needs to be created other than God. If you accept that God doesn't need to be created then you should also allow that the universe may have just always existed with nothing coming "before" as that would not make any sense.
     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Its made up Jan you must remember that so I see it as a possible explanation of what we deal with.
    But although it is a utube presentation one would be best seeking evidence to either give weight to the various propositions contained in it or cast doubt upon them.
    And Jan what are your thoughts upon the notions presented in the video.
    Alex
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I am prepared to listen to your version of what is true if indeed you present it.
    I don't personally know any of the authors or explanations of their inspiration, to simply claim ones writings are inspired by God is a rather grand claim and really needs more than mere say so.
    Why not claim anything written is inspired by God, my words yours? And we could use some evidence in support of claims that various works are inspired and therefore Gods word...One can find many inconsistencies suggesting the morality supposed to be in the bible is inconsistent and one is entitled to expect absolute consistency if dealing with the word of God.
    Perhaps you have an approach to justify the notion of inspired writing which you are entitled to put forward.
    The absence of evidence, inconsistencies, concern about unsupported claims, and a list of many other points that suggest the is an overall lack of credibility leads me to a point where facts seem to point to the notion of God to be a myth.
    Existence comes from faith not observation.
    Good questions keep using them.
    Then why ask.
    Who knows who makes up what the key is to be able to realise that something is made up, most things are of course, words of man subject to question, and the words of god are only the words if men, and as such to be regarded carefully an tested for error and consistency of reason and fact.
    If you believe this that is your opinion only you can work out if your opinion is correct.
    I point out why stuff is made up if it is easy to reject my claim do so.
    Perhaps bring forward the witness of creation who saw it...otherwise any account is made up by someone who was not there...made up, invented, guessed whatever..
    Always possible.

    Alex
     
  10. Michael 345 Home 2 days still jet lag sleepy Valued Senior Member

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    Agree with YOUR right to hold turtles and other explanations as nonsensical

    But your assertion of the nonsensibility of any proposals does not MAKE them so

    Did you consider my poem to you nonsensical?

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  11. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    11,594
    An atheist/new-age idea.

    There's no point.
    There is theist, and there is atheist.
    Although they are labels, the meaning behind them is a fundamental aspect of our existence.

    Why is it a grand claim?

    Because it isn't, and they aren't.
    It's no big deal.

    Why is morality inconsistent, in the bible?

    Jesus existed. Why do think there is no evidence?

    As for God. Atheists, while remaining atheist, they are impervious to the evidence. They already deny and reject God, subconsciously.

    Can you answer them?

    So the rigged audience can see how they are conning themselves.

    At some point, one or two, may come to their senses, and this could possibly help in the process.

    I know. You have to defend your position, no matter what.


    Jan.
     
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I was hoping for more than a short description.
    Perhaps an opinion or comment acknowledgement or rejection.
    Even to say you liked it enjoyed it, it should be banned or taught in schools.
    I find appeal because they talk about stars, I like stars, astronomy is my favorite thing.
    True, and each think of the other "why don't they get it, it is as plain to see as the nose on your face, how can they not get it?"
    My only concern is a belief that children should not be conditioned to believe anything, guided to understand norms of reasonable behaviour etc but not to be traumatised with fears if punishment in hell or to be made guilt ridden be being referred to as a sinner, all are sinners.
    What else could we call it, provide an alternative if you wish.
    I say they are, each of us inspired by God to keep him being talked about.
    The point is folk can claim all sorts of stuff and being inspired by God is a great one to make, you can capitalise and benefit. People make up stuff.
    I don't know why.
    If I were the Pope or similar for whatever religion edit the bible.
    Take out the nasty stuff and put it in a history book remove the myths or make it clear it is a fictional story but there be a moral.
    Make it somehow credible to deliver a very limited message, be happy, be good, be kind, be respectful, and concentrate on the good things you can do but don't preach about what not to do..your doctor can tell you that.
    I have not found any evidence so for me there is no evidence as far as I am aware, as you would say.
    Its such a pity I missed the evidence because I really would like to see some. Evidence let's go..please present the first exhibit.
    We all can offer an answer.
    Rigged? How so who rigged it?
    You seem to have a strange way that you seek to qualify others and in so doing present them in a negative light yet remaining silent on the specific.
    I hope you didn't get that from me.
    Great minds think alike or so I claim and in so doing complement both of us...but that's what I was just about to say to you.

    Alex
     
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    5,243
    The only record is the bible, the Romans did not record the miracles, the sentencing or death on the cross.
    The new testament was written long after Jesus is supposed to have lived so at best any records of what he did and said can not be reliable.
    There at least nine other gods with similar MO to Jesus and it would seem that the creation of Jesus was a story told at least nine times earlier in various places and all reflect personification related to Sun worship.
    Utube has various videos and if you really wanted to find the truth I would be researching it deeply...that is if you want to know..you may have read about the seemed rip off but its a case of are you game to look and consider if Jesus is indeed anything more than a re run that took off.
    Don't get me wrong some teachings are neat, I see myself as a peaceful man like him able to perform what others may think are miracles.
    But the link to astronomy or astrology seems credible.
    The Egyptian priest could observe Sirius, the brightest star, and when it would appear on the East horizon at day break could tell the populace that it would flood two weeks later, Sirius is your star of Bethlehem.
    Three Kings are found in Orion.
    They thought the stars Sun and Moon were Gods I believe.
    So probably the story of the flooding would be told by priests claiming they were told by the gods.
    Unfortunately these days the Gods don't tell us anything other than as we stop believing in them they will be no more.
    Alex
     
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    4,653
    That's the whole point: if it isn't possible for something to come into being by itself, then it isn't possible for a creator to come into being by itself. If a creator can exist without a cause, then so can something else.
     
  15. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    4,653
    It's supposed to be annoying. I'm annoyed at the idea that "turtles all the way down" is a joke while gods/creators/designers are something to be taken seriously.
     
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I consider most of your posts nonsensical - but in a good way. I like nonsense as long as it doesn't try to masquerade as sense.
     
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    3,508
    It presupposes that the reader knows what "turtles" refers to, I don't.
     
  18. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    4,653
    Ah. You could have googled it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down.

    There's a myth that claims the world is supported on the backs of four elephants, which are in turn supported by a giant turtle. When asked what supports the turtle, a believer says, "Don't be silly. It's turtles all the way down."
     
  19. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    3,508
    I would never have thought to Google "turtles" in this case.

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    Yes, turtles seems silly but the planet Zeno is real, I know it, just look around us, how could it be without the planet Zeno?
     
  20. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    4,653
    I don't see any difference between turtles or the planet Zeno or gods/designers. How does the evidence for Zeno differ from the evidence for turtles?
     
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    3,508
    It doesn't. It was a joke.
     
  22. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    The designer had always existed, the devil was created.
     
  23. Michael 345 Home 2 days still jet lag sleepy Valued Senior Member

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    6,605
    That's OK no problem
    Do need glasses
    Only ask because I posted about liking my POEM for you not post
    Some where you liked my BRENDA poem
    So I did one on SIDESHOWBOB

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    No response

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