Who designed the designer?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Michael 345 Next for NT Anzac Day 2018 Valued Senior Member

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    Isn't the current thinking along the lines, vastly simplified
    It impossible for a vacuum to exist so the low pressure state caused particles to flip in and out of existence
    It happened that the particles flipping in and out interacted
    Result was a rapid expansion where and the when of the Universe started

    Least that's how my 2 year old explained it to me

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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    If that is right, then it was "caused" by a random, i.e. uncaused, event, wouldn't you say?

    Whether this is right or not I do not know. My contention is simply that the statement that there was an initial, uncaused, cause of everything is not nonsensical.

    (Though it is not a scientific statement of course, as it is untestable by observation.)
     
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  5. Michael 345 Next for NT Anzac Day 2018 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I could go with RANDOM just happening without a cause

    Mind you a tiny tiny tiny ittse bittsy micro mini period later you have a RANDOM EVENT

    Get where that would go?

    Nope I'll back you the RANDOM had no cause
    The RANDOM became the RANDOM EVENT then blah blah blah

    NOTHING caused the RANDOM

    Put it to bed and kiss it goodnight

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  7. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. That is what I mean by it being a truism, i.e. true but so what?, rather than nonsense.
     
  8. Michael 345 Next for NT Anzac Day 2018 Valued Senior Member

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    Pity we can't test it but I'm happy to call it truly happening on the observed evidence because here we are

    Now if we could only convince others - THIS is how it IS and the old man with the beard is NOT IS

    Oh hum wishful thinking

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  9. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    We don't know. Maybe we can never know. That's why it makes no sense to talk about something being "uncaused". Until we have a way of looking "beyond" a certain point - and we might never have that capability - the answer is undefined.
     
  10. Michael 345 Next for NT Anzac Day 2018 Valued Senior Member

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    Me thinks you are taking the Tip Toe Through the Tulips approach

    Since it is already well established that nothing in Science is ever truly known surely you can go with "OK we don't know, may never know, but our best scientific explanation going on our best observations 'RANDOM fluctuations, in the low density flip in flip out of existence of particles defines a non causality' "

    Say goodnight Gracie

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  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    That is obviously true from a scientific viewpoint, as I acknowledged earlier in answer to Seattle, I think it was. However not only scientific statements have meaning. It may be an unresolvable issue but that does not make the hypothesis ipso facto nonsensical. Unless one takes a highly reductionist view such that any metaphysical speculation is "nonsense". I don't think many philosophers would embrace such a view.
     
  12. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    The only point I'm making is that a single unsupported turtle is on the same "sensical" level as an infinite stack of turtles. You can't claim that one "makes more sense" than the other. The same principle applies to an uncaused God (un-designed designer) versus an infinite regression of gods (designers). I don't know why it's more acceptable to pretend that Gods are more sensible than giant turtles.
     
  13. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    We seem to be slightly at cross-purposes. I also think the Cosmological Argument fails as evidence of God, but I think bringing turtles into it is an unhelpfully pejorative distraction from the logic. Leaving turtles out of it, as nobody is asserting anything about turtles, the logical point I am trying to make is that it is not "nonsensical" to think that the universe was not caused by anything. It is quite a sensible supposition.

    If it was not caused by anything, then the first step of its existence (which then caused everything subsequently) was uncaused. So, to say (portentously) that there was an "uncaused first cause" is no more than saying it was not caused by anything. It is not "nonsense", it is merely self-evidently true. But so what? It is not evidence of a God, or of turtles, or of anything whatever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    It's intentionally pejorative.

    But that isn't the topic. The topic is "Who designed the designer?" That's exactly the same question as "What is the turtle standing on?"
     
  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Hang on, you said the Cosmological Argument was nonsensical and that is what I have been taking issue with.
     
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    "Uncaused cause" is nonsensical. Turtles.

    The phrase itself is nonsensical. It's an oxymoron. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    If the universe was not caused by anything, that would not be an uncaused cause. It would be an example of why it's wrong to assume that everything must have a cause. We can assume that all elephants are big until we discover a small one. That example is proof that our assumption was wrong.
     
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    The point of the OP was that some say that there must be an intelligent designer (God). If everything needs an intelligent designer then the intelligent designer needs an intelligent designer...ad infinitum.

    Therefore, adding God (or intelligent designer) adds nothing. The only satisfying answer with this logic would be (infinity) that the universe has always existed. If that's the case (not particularly satisfying either to have to resort to infinity) then a God (intelligent designer) isn't needed either.
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    God created the designer and the designer designed God.
    It would be speculative and therefore unscientific to say how that happened.

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    Alex
     
  19. Michael 345 Next for NT Anzac Day 2018 Valued Senior Member

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    How about wording it

    god created a designer
    the designer promptly undated the design of god

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  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    We probably should be careful presenting ideas to help the ID camp as they will steal our science for their schools.

    Still alive how about you, but if I die I will send you a PM

    Rather shaken still but I seem to be OK

    Alex
     
  21. Michael 345 Next for NT Anzac Day 2018 Valued Senior Member

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    Still around and trying to catch up with a few mutual friends to pass on the news
    If I go first I'll get god to give you extra healthy years and to delay entry for one poster for being so annoying obtuse

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  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks.
    And ask about my big pigeon maybe get the designer to knock up the plans so God just has to OK them.
    Obtuse? Annoying I don't find anyone annoying particularly when obtuse.
    Maybe its all the talk of crushing bring back old memories.
    Stay well.
    And Happy Birthday Jesus.
    Alex
     
  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Like Elvis, I like Baby Jesus better.
     

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