Who designed the designer?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Michael 345 Bali in Nov closer Valued Senior Member

    Pssssst the celebrations are the same ones. I'm sure your knowledge base is large enough to include the information christains stole pagan happenings and rebranded them as "Happy Birthday jc"

    Stick to the pagan version much more fun
    Have a good one what ever you choose

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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    First no Santa and now this.
    So I escaped the city and back in the bush with all my astronomy gear but I won't set up until the storm passes.
    I am planing to photograph Orion in a wide field to include Sirius, orion has the three kings that should line up with Sirius to point to where to Sun will rise on the other side of the world.
    According to weather app we are about to be hit by a giant red cloud.
    If you were religious you could call it the end of the world event and get to rattle off a few prayers to prevent it and then when the world doesn't end a few more prayers in thanks and an excuse to barbeque something.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  5. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    It certainly helps.
    But I doubt you're being kept around, anymore than anyone else. No doubt this notion you have of God, allows you to think in this way.

    We, as humans, are the ones who are cruel to ourselves, each other, and to other living beings. We can make that stop, if we really want to, by not partaking in anything that is in league with cruel behaviour. We have a choices, and we choose every moment of our lives. Not just the waking conscious moments, but the sub conscious as well.

    As you can imagine, it may not be possible to achieve that, because we are free to choose. So we have to live with the consequences of the choices we make.

    What are you looking for exactly?
    God? There is no evidence that leads to actually being no God. If you decide that exhibit A demonstrates no God. Then it will have been you who added the final conclusion. In short it is you that decides there is no God. And that's what an atheist is.

    For an atheist, there is no God, and for a theist, there can only be God. That's why these positions are fundamental to our existence.

    And you think theism is that which succumbs to those voices and feelings?
    A common misconception among atheists. By that, I don't mean only professed atheists, but people who generally think that.

    Maybe I don't fully understand what you're saying. Or maybe I simply need more information.

    A question is a question. What do you mean by presenting it in detail?
    Do you require more detail for that question? Or that one? Or that one? Or that....?

    If you're not prepared to go into discussion about it, then why bring it up in the first place? Is this how you're going to respond to all my questions?

    You know, I never found out that Santa wasn't real. It just didn't matter anymore. It didn't matter what people said. Even if the everyone in the world had said Santa is real. It couldn't make me accept it. Because I didn't. But if it turned out Santa was real, then either I accept it, or carry on regardless. In short, I don't care. I imagine that's how God is, for you.

    I don't know. What information do you have, that would confirm this?

    But why Jesus, though?
    Is it because Jesus is historically who he is. Or is it because Jesus claimed he was the son of God, and performed miracles?
    If he hadn't performed those miracles, would you still doubt he existed? Would you even be bothered?

    I suppose you could say the same for the transformation of a caterpillar to a butterfly.

    You are speaking from the view point of a materialist. As such you will block anything you regard as supernatural, or find an explanation that fits your worldview. You may be correct in some cases, but you may be incorrect in some as well. You, we will never know, until we realise, and we cannot realise until we know. A vicious circle? Yes, until we understand. In doing so we make progress.

    Just because you don't know, doesn't mean others don't.

    It is correct.
    Google it and see for yourself.

    How is it that historians have no problem with it, but you do? What more evidence, than the majority of historians agreeing with it it, do you need, to lose your scepticism?

    There is no evidence, because you don't want there to be any evidence. There never will be any evidence, because you will always set the bar just out of reach.
    That is because you are atheist. Not because of evidence, or lack of.

    Alex, you're not as reasonable as you seem to think.

    Happy Christmas.

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  7. birch Valued Senior Member

    Creation and existence may be the aberration. I would think nothingness or 'all there is' which is coincidentally similar in its completeness is what is sought. There is no rest until we reach it either.

    There is also the view there always was including nothing, its just we dont know all there is so its confusing and incomplete because we are incomplete literally and figuratively.

    Also, death as we experience it, not just in the religious sense, a transition.

    Whatever it is, its annoying not knowing but then again, if i could know everything i do wonder what i would think of it.

    I would like to think all these awful things and aberrations which cause suffering is just some mistake and its not in vain as in there is an ultimate good or truth but thats equally hard to believe because of evil in lifeforms.

    It will never cease until everyone is without any type of lack percieved or real.

    If there was a version of heaven where every lifeform and consciousness was fulfilled entirely, there would be completeness and no robbing peter to pay paul etc.

    Ironicly, life shows us, at least in this universe lifeforms (regardless of identity politics or station in life) is inherently communist.

    If you really observe lifeforms and how they actually operate (not self-serving rationalizations and politics) you will notice this in abundance. Its seen in the most frivolous of trends of how people mimic eachother or the game of one-upmanship or keeping up with the joneses. If you take away the facade and veil, most people are starkly communist as the rich rob from the poor or use them using priviledge or abuse of power as much as the poor demand gains themselves.

    This means people are not happy campers until not only they dont have reasons to be jealous of another but until there is no reason to or until all can be in a healthful and secure state.

    This is why i laugh when people just assume superficially they have no communist ideology simply because they live in a country that has declared itself capitalist yet life experience has shown me tons of people who are motivated by jealousy and envy of others, legitimate or not, for all sorts of reasons from the most petty to the grandiose. Anything you have, and another does not, even figuratively, there will be someone out there who will be jealous or want to take you down or damage it.

    Clue: Nobody seems to like a heirarchy when they are on the short end of the stick. When this occurs, they show their communist colors. This is regardless of politics or religion or what people 'think' they are because what you think you are is not always true. People are self-serving.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I agree that a God that does not exist has no say so in my existence.
    Well of course its all due to humans.
    There obviously in no indication of any other player in the game.
    But I maintain, if there existed this make believe character capable of all things and who loves us, that character could reasonably expected to do something.
    Like I said some time ago a farmer would not leave his animals unattended, not a good parallel but sufficient to communicate my disgust at the notion God gives a damn.
    Jan I have forgotten the question sorry but that is the truth and I simply don't feel like trying to go back to determine what it is you want answered but if you care to ask a specific question now I will do my best to answer it for you.
    Well you should make the effort to find out.
    You have indicated you know about religion so I would be surprised if you don't have a clue about the development of personification of heavenly bodies, or the various "gods" developed from that approach.
    If you don't know and are unable to find out anything and must rely upon my research that would show you as ignorant of available hypothesis which frankly I can not believe.
    I don't have to hand feed you.
    If you want to know more look into it. Google personification of heavenly bodies, that should give you a wiki link that should bring you up to speed.
    I am not bothered.
    All the similar characters have their miracles and the personification thing is something I find interesting from a historical point of view.
    All made up that seems clear.
    No. Simply not relevant.
    The circle is your exclusively.
    You create the problem thinking you know I suggest that you don't know, your authority I still need to hear, but as you observe, being a materialist, it must be compelling.
    We have wandered for many pages and I have given you opportunity to provide something, anything, and you don't do that, I know you can't so I don't expect you ever will.
    There is no meat in your sandwich Jan and the bread is horribly stale.
    I have given you reasons for my rejection of the God notion but I can't say you have given me a glimpse as to why as an intelligent human you hold onto ancient superstition and can't see you have fallen for lies. You seem incapable of defending, not that you must, your position other than outstanding rhetoric that does nothing more than entertain.
    Fat chance. So who knows what?
    Present reference to someone who knows something rather than rattling out ancient superstition.
    It is not correct.
    The only reference is non description and refers to a title not a person.
    The point is there are no historical records.
    You can take me out here Jan simply by providing evidence, a simple link, that historians say Jesus existed...
    I suggest you will not because the historians I suspect you have in mind have no credibility.
    You jump to a position that there are historians and there are not.
    If there were credible historians I would have found them by now.
    Just because I am a simple man I say I am well read, certainly more than I let on in this field.
    Probably my reading is the cause of my approach as I read more than the bible.
    I thought you knew more, at least the lack of historical evidence...there is none..zip...nothing.
    A mere supposition as there is no evidence I would do any such thing.
    Present something before you predetermine my action.
    I am so reasonable there needs to be a new superlative to describe me.

    Merry Christmas to you and yours Jan.

  9. birch Valued Senior Member

    Life is disturbing in its implications because its like a test. Anyone can be good if they have everything but ive seen there are people who show there is such a thing as evil because they can have ill will and jealousy for things that have no benefit to them, even if they had it or they dont actually value it. Its just ego.

    Then there is the greed, abuse and evil politics which result in even unnecessary and gratuitous suffering.

    There is something so ugly and evil that is shown when it comes to life and pervades it so the concept of a creator does not bring any comfort or resolve either. Actually, thats hideous.
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  10. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Of course you do.
    You wouldn't be atheist otherwise.

    You mean stop us from making choices?
    Would you be okay with that?
    God eradicated evil prior to the flood, yet people say, how could a loving God do such a thing.

    Why? I'm not the one trying to make an argument with, or give an explanation of, it.

    Which is why I require more information about it.

    We're all materialists, Alex.
    Atheists simply lack belief in God (for whatever reason).

    I've given you opportunity to provide something, anything, as well, and here we are, still in our respective positions. It kind of makes me think that the positions are what is actually important.

    The reasons you give are not the reasons you are atheist. You are atheist, and you give those reasons to validate, and justify your position. There is no way you can empirically conclude that God does not exist. Yet you hold that belief. You seem incapable of defending your position. Even with rhetoric. I'm glad you find my rhetoric entertaining, because life would be dull without entertainment.

    Why, Alex?
    That's all it will ever be to you, Alex. Until, you stop blocking. When or if that time comes, you will be asking different questions.

    Like I said, you're never going to accept any notion of God, no matter what.

    Define ''credible historians''?

    Take that up with historians, not me.

    You present something.

    There is, ''modern atheist''.

  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Stop us from choosing war.
    Stop us from being cruel.
    Would that be so terrible?
    The argument of free will is presented to make it sound somehow wonderful that God let's us kill each other and be cruel.
    The reality there is no God who cares or can do zip and in an effort to explain away questions like mine believers have made up the nonsense that is the argument of free will.
    I would indeed be OK with that.
    A world with humans programmed not to kill or be cruel would be much better and any fool would agree with such a proposition if not bound to run the party line "oh God loves us and he gave us free will to kill and be cruel"... Sure he does or could it be that that crap is just another weak excuse why God if he were more than made up would act in a positive manner and do something consist with the made up love this made up character supposed has.
    Yeah sure he loves us and you can prove that because God gives us free will...and Santa climbs down chimneys.
    All transparently made up with no proof otherwise.
    So he showed he was capable of doing something about evil but for whatever reason decided to send a flood.
    The flood story is so unrealistic I don't need to comment.
    Nice bait but presented poorly.
    Sure don't bother I can't think of any reason why you should as clearly you know all you need to know so what else could give you a greater knowledge.
    I will work around you ignorance of history and confine myself to comment on stuff that is made up.you
    Google is your friend.
    Well Jan if I thought I may be responsible for you changing your belief I would not engage.
    I would like to think our respective efforts do no more than cause folk to confirm their already held positions.
    It would not make me happy to have you come here and tell me you have burnt your bible because I have convinced you it is made up and you are now an atheist.
    I have no need absence at roll call will do.
    I don't feel it that way.
    I won't be guilty of delusion.
    But I know or suspect that when you say this you are being nice.
    Good I was not sure I had made my point clear.
    Historians who are credible.
    That will do but sometimes I feel uncomfortable just with atheist as the implication is that one is better informed and more rational than their opposite.

    Thank you Jan for providing me with matters that cause my brain to stir yet not over burden it.

    I enjoy talking about religion because as a child I was told never to discuss politics or religion.
    I was told to do so can cause problems and I can see that.

  12. Michael 345 Bali in Nov closer Valued Senior Member

    The question was asked - Which god do atheist wish existed?

    My answer

    A kind god. One who would love his creation. One who would engage with his creation. One who would care for his creation. One who would occasionally turn up to let us know he was still around

    Unfortunately no god in the lexicon of gods is like that

    So ironically I am wishing for a god who does not exist. Well at least I am not worshipping a non existent god

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    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  13. river


    I have

    But what are you trying to accomplish with your on and on discussions on this thread ?
  14. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    That is your reality Alex. You look at the world from a materialistic perspective. If you look at all the creatures in the world, the human being is the only one who can perform cruel acts. All the other creatures, war, kill, rape, and torture (at least to some degree), yet none are perceived as cruel. Humans needn't be cruel, as there is enough resources to go round, if we chose to be fair. Humans have the capacity to be cruel, because they are human. To take away the human right, to be human, is to take away his/her existence. But most of us enjoy being human, and currently most of us are basically good, in that we don't intentionally do harm, although we do harm constantly, without real intention.

    So you want humans to become extinct.
    Isn't that like amputating your leg to stop your toe from aching?

    Humans are the way they are, just like dogs and crocodiles are the way they are.
    You're a human, you enjoy discussions, astronomy, probably even a pint. There may be other things you enjoy that you haven't mentioned. But you have the capacity to enjoy on that level. Other humans enjoy different things, distasteful things. There are many different types of humans, in terms of different ways of enjoy their experience.

    You most probably wouldn't want to programme all dogs not to bite, because packs of dogs have been biting people for centuries. But if you did manage to do that, you would lose a lot more of the dog, than not biting people. It would be better if everyone was sensible enough to train their own dog not to bite, by appealing to the dogs intelligence capacity. That's the point of real religion, not just religion by name or business, to train people to act more like humans and less like animals, to get to a point of realisation, or enlightenment.

    Like I said, you will never accept God as long as you're atheist. You will create a blockade at every turn.

    I've looked into it Alex. It's false.

    Not much more to discuss. Is there?

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    That's what atheist means.

    No reason to feel guilty. It's your call.

    Being an atheist is enough of a point.

    Pretty childish Alex.
    What makes some historians credible, and others not?

    So far you've yet to show that.

    What problems do you see?

  15. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    I'm responding to people, river.
    This is a discussion board where people engage in discussion. Isn't it?

  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I percieve such cruelty.
    I would not have carnivores.
    I see no reason why we could not be programed not to kill or be cruel and still not be "normal". I dont kill nor am I cruel I would not miss the right to do so.
    The free will arguement is lame but theists must cling to it because it is all they have to defend the horror of war and the suffering of animals.
    what is odd is that theists cant imagine a world where they are hard wired differently but happy to have a God dictate all other behaviour. Oh but we have the free will to listen to or ignore God...sure you do. I have no problem to surrender my choice to kill and be cruel, and I expect animals would not care either.
    The free will arguement does not wash with me.
    I dont see how you can make such a jump there is nothing I suggest that would see that result.
    Again you must defend your free will story so you reach for anything you can, even propositions that are ridiculous, in the vain hope that your free will story can hold off an attack. It cant, believers believe it but obviously they believe what they are told to believe.
    Someone not bound to the church will never be convinced.
    All the anologies in the world will not make the free will story acceptable.
    Tell it to the millions of mothers, fathers, sons, daughters and friends of all those who died in the World Wars. 20,000 in one day at the Sombe, or perhaps all those poor Japanese who died in the Atomic blasts...or dont they count? damn foreigners they dont count I expect.
    The wars and cruelty one can trace back through history.
    The suffering of women and domestic violence...yeh its bad but we cant lose our free will....
    I think all would give up the free will to kill and be very happy to do so.
    It is claims like the free will story that makes the notion of a God ridiculous and makes those who buy that story complacent fools.
    More appologies.
    I dont buy it and say you have been sold a pup.
    I am not a particulary smart man but I believe I am no fool, certainly not easily conned, and dont need to erect any blockade because simply by doing some research one can find how religion evoloved how the old and the new testament contains clear mistakes so I suggest that I do not have to put up a blockage but rather if the bible is to be half believable in needs to be consistent, to be factual even relevant which is asking too much no doubt,.
    The problems hardley means I need take a stand as the whole business falls in a heap under any investigation.
    The believers make themselves look stupid but that is their problem and even the strongest believer would abandon their belief if they simply read stuff that is easy to find explaining the evolution of the superstition we call religion.
    Well I did not think you would say otherwise.
    And I will not be the one to direct you here and there to get you to read the reasearch but your casual dismissal suggests you may have missed some of the more compelling works. Not my problem.
    Thanks Jan.
    I guess the best way to proceed would be case by case basis.
    If you cite a historian we can look and determine his credibility and same with anyone I cite.
    Basically the various problems with fact distortion in the bible.

    Jan I will be gone for a while. We are going to a remote place out of range on the river for some camping etc.

    Nice chatting again enjoy xmas.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  17. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    No probs Alex. It sounds good.
    Have a good one, and try not to brutalise, kill, or torture too many critters under foot, as you walk, sit, lie on, or any via any general movement, or activity you make.

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  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Just waiting for everyone to get organised right now.
    There will be no fishing or shooting. We dont kill snakes, or any creatures...but there will be a variety of meats, and sea food so I can entertain hypocracy.
    I shall not drink any booze in protest to the existence of the God Bacus.
    A gentle group all atheists.
    But you know how it will probably go there will be arguements over which God not to believe in.
    And yesterday you will be happy to know I found an astronomy magazine that using astronomy references was able to give a reasonably acurate date of death for Jesus by particluar references in the bible. Interestingly however the research had to assume that one aspect of the biblical reference was wrong otherwise the whole thing fell apart.

  19. Michael 345 Bali in Nov closer Valued Senior Member

    And a very Merry Pagan day to you sir

    I hope in 2018 you are
    12 months happy
    52 weeks funny
    365 days successful
    8760 hours healthy
    52600 minutes lucky
    3153600 seconds joyful

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  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I am back. I decided not to stay overnight there.
    I am hopeful of doing someastro photography but its is very cloudy.
    You should see this property I was at.. frontage to the river and it is wide and deep unbelievable.
    ANd I say a very happy xmas pagen day or whatever you call this time of year....and a great new year.

  21. Michael 345 Bali in Nov closer Valued Senior Member

    As I noted somewhere here christians stole the pagan feast times and rebranded them as the birthday of jc
    It's only, within the past week, occurred to me us pagans should claim back our birthright celebrations
    Will mull over, with a mulled wine, the possibility of putting Mother and Father Pagan in shopping centres for photo opportunities
    Kick out the red robed CokeCola interloper

    Way to go

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  22. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Would you be prepared cease all but very basic activity?

    Do you think not being able to make a choice, is normal to the human being.

    Of course you kill.
    As to whether or not you're being cruel, is debatable.

    Do you say that freely, or was it guided by some Darwinian mrchanism?

    Do you eat meat, fish, or eggs?

    So, what is a human being, as far as you understand?

    You do realise you are displaying freewill. Right?

    How may lives do you think you have destroyed in the last month?

    I suppose you know how anything evolved with ''just so'' stories.
    But what do you really know, and how do you know it?

    The research is nonsense. I thought you were no fool, and not conned easily.

    Why do you make claims, if you're not prepared to back up, or elaborate upon them?
    Either answer the question, or ignore it.

    I've no idea what you're talking about.

  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I watched an interesting vid wherein the presenter told of various rip offs of modern bands and artists.
    I wont link it because I dont keep my history but a google and reference to utube will turn it up no doubt.

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