The problem with the English language is that we have the same word for many meanings. Religious faith is not quantative. Faith as small as a mustard seed is still faith. Faith is not the belief that you are correct. Faith is a choice to believe and hope in that something is what you think. In Dictionary.Com it would be more like the third meaning: Faith is Loyalty. Loyalty is the choice to believe in someone. I do not believe in God 100%, but maybe 80-90%. However, I have 100% faith in him. I lay my life down every day because I choose to be loyal in the small belief that I have. That is faith. Well, don't you know it's a bad word? j.k. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
There could be an undiscovered tool that we don't know about. 100 years ago people laughed at the Wright brothers. As far as God's track record, you need but to ask anyone who has had an encounter with him. If you want me to do the painful task of asking everyone I know who is a friend of God, I will, but I would hope you know some trustworthy Christian people. No, you are correct. But, if the account of Mount Sinai and all the other miracles of Moses are supported by physical proof to have happened. The argument is strengthened. You don't follow the logic: IF Jesus WAS everything he claimed to be (which was the Son of God), then he is the Son of God because (for sake of this argument we are assuming he is) he is. So, if Jesus is the Son of God, he does not lie because God is everything that Jesus said he is (which is told in scriptures). So, if Jesus (the son of God) supports the truths of scripture, then God exists because the scriptures say he does. Yes, it may not be true, but I was stating it just to say why I believe in the Scriptures. Because the scriptures have little to stand on, but are strengthened if Jesus was who he said he was. The love I speak of is not platonic. The love is the love that only a Christian can give. You may say you love the person who killed your father, but in your heart you don't. It is not humanly impossible. God makes what is impossible possible. Christian love is about loving the unlovable, something even "Christians" may not have. That is the love that only God knows about between you and him, something that people say, "It doesn't make sense." There were missionaries who went to tell a tribe about God and to love them where they are at. The five guys left their families and promising lives behind in the name of love. They were intitially accepted, but the natives couldn't understand why they were being treated with love like this. They feared the missionaries and killed them. The wife of Mr. Saint (I think his name was Steve), went to the tribe and continued the work. They saved the whole tribe, and the one who killed Mr. Saint was a church leader and adopted "Grandfather" of the son of Mr. Saint. To see them together and hug each other despite the history cannot be explained away. If you want to know the story and see the men, check of Steven Curtis Chapman Live DVD. That is love that is unique to Christians. Correct, what is your point? I do not presume to know. :bugeye:
That's the biggest misconception about what Jesus taught. You see, he never claimed this title for himself, it's an analogy to what we all are. When you realize it, we are all sons and daughters of the phenomenon from which we came, (which Jesus, being a Jew, calls-God, for lack of a better term). That's another way to say that between us and the devine, there is a direct connection.
There may be - but the Wright brothers weren't laughed at because they used Mathematics. The tool is just that - a tool. People laugh at the purpose to which the tool is put - in the case of the Wright brothers - flight. Mathematics is a tool of pure logic. It can not be called into question. Only its application can be. Now we could devise something that helps us more than Maths - but then we've always created better tools. There's no argument there. But bear in mind, that 1 + 1 = 2 no matter what "language" you put it in. You could call 2 10 in binary - but it still means the same thing. For every person who has supposedly been helped by "god" there has been a person seemingly let down by him. Since when is evidence of the existence of a place to be used to strengthen the case for "miracles". And Mt. Sinai is not a miracle - it is a place. What happened there might be deemed a miracle - but Mt. Sinai is just a place. I could write a novel based in the UK and include many "miracles" - but just because the places may exist doesn't in any way add credence to the "miracles" I might describe. Okay, let me simplify it for you: you are saying you are a believer because someone claimed to be the Son of God? And thus if they WERE truly the Son of God, then not only does God exist, but this person is their Son. This is begging the question. No offence, but it also makes you gullible. What of all the other people since then who have claimed to be the Son of God? Why not believe them? After all, if THEY are correct, then you've been following the wrong one. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! No offence again, but bollox. I would quite happily give my life to save my friends, my family. I will always be there when they need me the most. How do you equate this supposed "Christian love" that is being given by an atheist? Right, so Christians are therefore inhuman? No. You are blinkered. Irrelevant. You are giving one example as proof of "Christian love". And what of Muslims who die to save others? What of soldiers who give their life to save people in other countries, of different races? Sacrifice is NOT specific to Christianity - it never has been and never will be. I was picking up on a comment you made: "You have yet to experience the love a true Christian" when you were replying to someone else. This, in my book, is an invalid assumption unless you happen to know the life story of the person you are replying to. That was all. As for believing in God 80-90% but having faith in him - this is illogical. If you have faith you believe. End of story. You can't be undecided about believing in god and still have 100% faith. You might well be undecided about the various facets of the god in which you do believe, but you still believe 100% in god.
the whole idea of a personal god has problems. discussing things like Moses, Sinai, or faith wont really get you anywhere. you have to have some proof, some argument that damages the other side through either logic or evidence. try this on for size. we all know that if evil exist, god is all-powerful, and good, then evil must be a product of god giving us free will right? however, how can god grant prayers without interfering in free will? the bible (and other religious texts) teaches you to pray for things, but if god grants your prayer god will have taken away someone’s free will. if you pray, for example, for someone to have a safe trip home, it would mean that every person they come near on their trip would not have the free will to hurt them. how could god grant that prayer without taking away the free will of the laborers? you see, even praying for something as simple as patients would take away your own free will. you would no longer have the choice to be impatient so what do you give up? god being good, god being all-powerful, or the word of Jesus (and therefore Christianity)? they can't all stand together.
Hi Yeh I have been thinking about the replies and yeh they are all right. I am ussuming and then get my assuption, but it is just a deductive proof. What I am assuming is that God exists, then proof that if he exists then He always existed It like saying 1+1 =2, and 4-2 = 2, and proving that 4-2 = 1+1 And there is nothing wrong with those proofs in Maths, so I cant see why I cant use them in Philosphy I wrote a detailed response while I was supposed to be listing to a lecture 2day, and I could go and get it but right now busy with some tutoring stuff so I could get it if you need more proof Bye, Thanks for making me think because in the other forums as soon I started going the whole subject changed Jako
Everything must have a cause in order to exist in the set physics and logics of this realm. Since God is the one who created the rules and Physics of this universe, He is not subject to them. He exists outside of time, has always existed [And I suppose never since time is His creation, or so I believe]. God created Himself, which is a sign of His power.
The universe is expanding, it is proven fact. It is a theory that they were once together, but a logical theory based on fact and Newton's Law. What is our personal truth, but a culmination of experiences, theories, and facts. Perhaps this one man's theories holds a missing key to your truth. You won't know until you objectively read his work. So, we agree to not agree. But, I am here to say not that God is provable, but that the odds are against there not being God. This is a debate, not a lecture; so, it is a two-way street. Besides, I have provided, and will continue to provide evidence to sway the odds of there being a creator. Again, God is unprovable, just like everything else. Science is an odds game. The odds increase the more times 1+1=2. Much of our personal truth is experience, so all I have to offer is my first-hand testimony, the testimony of people I know, and the theories of people smarter than me that are supported by fact. You are right, it is not proof, but I am proof. And every true Christian on the planet is living proof that God exists. Their actions defy that natural human nature, even when it is not possible to defy of their own strength. I see perfectly good, virtuous people who are not Christians. I see some in my family who proclaim to be Christians and are not. These good people feed the hungry 6 days a week, only to murder someone on Saturday. So, what does that make them? The example is extreme, but the point is that good people cannot resist human nature to look to oneself. So, the fact that Christians perform extraordinary feats to resist oneself, raise the dead, heal the sick, and other feats, stands as testament to a supernatural power, and the power is described to a tee in the Bible. You know that 1+1=2, and if you read a book that contains the equation, are you more likely to believe some more of what is in the book? You may not believe the whole book (and you should be skeptical), but it is a start.
Watch the video, it is compelling. It was a team of an Entrepreneur and an ex-FBI agent. Together they had the means and skill of investigation to uncover the truth. Not to mention the balls, they could have been executed. There was a sign posted at the foot of the mountain threatening of it. They recorded all of the physical evidence, and the description matches 100% the account in the bible, word for word. So, if that part is true and another part is true, and another, and another. What are the chances that the whole is true? Correct, that makes those good people drug dealers. I have a "Christian" sister-in-law that is a gossip. So, what is she? I lie when I am scared. What does that make me? The point is that everyone is, by nature, out to go through life for themselves. It is a true Christian that has the power to defy nature, and if he does wrong, he will make it right. If he fails, he is not a Christian. So, how can anyone walk the line of Christianity? No one, but Jesus. But, one so perfect chose to die. So, God, for the sake of his Son, forgives us our sins when we repent. I know you all have had bad experiences of two-faced "Christians", by census account, Christians are the predominant people on Earth. So, your experiences weigh heavy to tell the truth you know, that Christianity is a lie. But, the odds are that it is the truth, but that you encountered the weakness of man which you have 100% odds to encounter. So, no one knows the REAL truth of the universe. But as for me, I am going with the odds.
That is a fallacy of apples and oranges. No, we are not sons and daughters of God. We see God as the Father, but not as our birth Father, but as one who is a Father in how he loves us. Jesus was spoken of, and actually said, he was the Son of God. He claimed with all authority that he was the same as God. The terms you speak of are coined, there is a stark difference between them. Jesus declares to have the power of God. He declares himself to have the power to forgive sins. He declares himself as "Lord of the Sabbath" Even demons and devils knew who he was. That is why he was killed, because the Pharisees wanted to continue to be "greater than thou" and be excused from sinning, but Jesus threatened their position. John Chapter 8 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John Chapter 10 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? Matthew Chapter 3 16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; 17 and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." Matthew Chapter 8 29 And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?" 30 Now a herd of many swine was feeding at some distance from them. 31 And the demons begged him, "If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of swine." 32 And he said to them, "Go." Matthew Chapter 16 "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Matthew Chapter 26 And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, "He has uttered blasphemy.
That is what I'm talking about. We think in binary. How do we know there is not a method in our brain that we can't unlock to enable us to calculate three or four dimensionally? Have you ever seen Bruce Almighty? What would happen if God answered all our prayers right away? What would happen if we always got what we asked for? We would be spoiled and bored because life would be a bowl of cherries day-in and day-out. Not a pretty picture. But anyway, the faith is hard to keep because we are self-centered by instinct, and it is not God who let them down, but they who have decided to give up on waiting for his blessing. Those that keep the faith are those that are blessed, they are those that kick their bad habits in one day. If you asked your dad for $10,000 and he didn't reply because it he didn't have it yet, and you stopped asking and didn't talk to him anymore just because he didn't respond in your timing. Would he want to give you $10,000 anymore? I wouldn't want a God who worked on MY schedule. That would take away his divination and make him no better than me. Good point. But it helps to have a tangible thumbprint of the event. A picture is worth a thousand words, and God on the mountain is not the only miracle in the story of the Exodus from Egypt. Moses performed many more miracles that have the thumbprint of the event. So, if the event happened, and we have only one explaination, dare we go against ancient text that give an account of the event? The problem with your novel is that everyone knows the history of the UK and can confirm or deny your miracles as fact or fiction. HEHE. That would suck. No, you misunderstand me. The Bible itself I have trouble accepting wholly that it was written by God's inspiration, because it was written by human hands. My faith in God is the culmination of experience, the Bible, testimonies, and the lack of proof of any other theory being the truth. The good news is for me is that there is enough prophecy, physical evidence, and the like to persuade me to follow Christ over all other gods and Christ wanna-bes. The Bible warns of anyone who says they are the Christ before the second coming on the clouds. And the Bible was written by many authors, not just one Muhhamed, or one Buddah. So the odds of something being the truth increase with the number of testimonies to the same truth. The Bible warns me not to throw wisdom to wolves, because they will trample it like pearls because it is useless to them. But here I am, doing such things, but not for your sake, but to challenge myself. I believe that you would lay your life down for your family. Would you lay your life down for your hated enemy merely because he was the Son of a friend? True, but I use Sacrifice because it is the strongest show of love. Soldiers who die for their country die for something great. Put the same soldier and ask him to die not for his country, but for his mortal enemy to be saved. Would you get the same response? Don't be caught up on sacrifice, I use it as an example because Christianity is about sacrifice of yourself 24/7. If that person had experienced the love a true Christian, that person would be a Christian. Salvation comes through the show of love and sacrifice on the behalf of God. Then, God will use that show and draw them near. That is the way it works, but I understand you don't know how it works because you never experienced it. It is the Christian formula of salvation, and anyone who knows of it is a Christian. Belief and Faith are two different words. You may not believe something that looks like an orange is going to taste like in orange (but you are not 100% sure), but you have 100% faith that it will taste like an orange when you bite it. You don't know until you bite. (die)
there was no physics before the big bang, so the big bang could, with your reasoning, exist without cause. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! , how is that possible? how can you exist before you exist? how do you come to this conclusion? where do you get your numbers? if the universe is actually an infinite multiverse, or an infinitely bang/church/bang universe, the odds are 100% that we will be here. the only thing odds point away from is a 1 time big bang with all the properties we have.
If I knew the answer to the mysteries of faith, the universe, and God, I wouldn't be a man. If anyone knows the answers to God's mysteries, the notion of God is foolishness. As I said, I am making an educated guess and so have faith because I don't like the alternative or the chance of mishap. I do know that we do have the free will to do as God instructs, or to do my own thing and leave God with the pieces. You are absolutely right, God cannot break the free will, that is why prayers are not answered sometimes. Not everyone is a friend of God, so opprotunites to do God's work are passed up by the faithless and timid. The act of praying for something like patience is giving up your free will to be changed to be more patient, or why you would ask to be changed if you were not willing to change? It is my own free will to choose to endure the trials that will teach me patience. In the mean time, I can ask for strength to endure the trials, then again, I am allowing God to change me to be strong. Or, I can do nothing and try to endure the trials to teach patience, or I can just not be patient and rip my hairs out. It's up to the individual.
He knows our hearts, so he knows how things will end up if nothing else changes. He knows what we will choose, but it is still our choice. He has been known to change his mind in scriptures (knowing that we will ask for him to), but he wants us to have a part in the plan. Look at Ninevah. He told them he will destroy them on this day and this hour if they didn't change their ways. Now, he knew what they would choose, but still gives them the chance to choose. He only knows the future as the result of the present, and he knows all hearts.
if he knows what's going to happen to us and everything's decided in advance then in what sense is your will free?
There is much evidence supporting creation, which tips the odds. A large contributor to the odds is found in biochemistry. Irreducibly complex systems have a "number of different components that all work together to accomplish the task of the system, and if you were to remove one of the components, the system would no longer function. An irreducibly complex system is highly unlikely to be built piece-by-pice through Darwinian processes, because the system has to be fully present in order to it to function." (Behe, 2004). Michael J. Behe, PHD is a reknowned biochemist who has researched cells at the molecular level. I got the quote from the book, "The Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel, but Dr. Behe has a book of his own. He does not prove there is a creator, but his research tips the odds in favor. Here is the table of contents of "The Case for a Creator", in case some may be interested in Strobel's collection of research: I. White-Coated Scientist vs Black-Robed Preachers II. Images of Evolution III. Doubs about Darwinism IV. Where science meets faith. V. The Evidence of Cosmology: Beginning with a Bang VI. The Evidence of Physics: The Cosmos on a Razor's Edge VII. The Evidence of Astronomy: The Privileged Planet VIII. The Evidence of Biochemistry: The Complexity of Molecular Machines IX. The Evidence of Biological Information: The Challenge of DNA and the Origin of Life X. The Evidence of Consciousness: The Enigma of the Mind Some scientists include: Jonathan Wells, Stephen C. Meyer, William Lane Craig, Robin Collins, Guillermo Gonzalez, Michael Behe, and J.P. Moreland. Good book! It is a journal, so it is a pretty easy read.
Nothing is decided in advance, do not misunderstand. God decided in advance that he will make man to keep THEM company. Did he know Adam would betray him? Who knows. He knew if Adam disobeyed, what would happen, and if he obeyed what will happen, but it was Adam's choice which future became the present. Yes, God has a plan of Salvation, he knows when he is going to come back, but it is not until everyone has had their last chance. We have the freedom to follow his plan or not. He knows how his plan will be accomplished, and it will be with or without you or me. Our choice. So when we cross the plan of God, we have a choice. Do I marry this woman that you have placed in my destiny? Is this in your plan? It is my choice, so I will marry, or I will not marry. You know what will happen if I marry, and also what will happen if I don't. Two futures, and both are known by God. But, all futures lead to the end of the plan of salvation where Jesus comes. It's all a matter of how you and I want to get there. On God's side, or not. It makes no difference, but God would prefer that you be there. In short, he knows all futures, and knows where are hearts are now in the present and where that will end up, but we are allowed to change our hearts and change the future. Many times over God had to say, "Alright, you want it that way, okay, this is how it is going to play out." Over and over and over, humans have chosen their own way (which was a good way in human logic, but not the best). God wanted to take the Jews of Egypt directly to the promised land. He said, "I will take you there right now, trust me." The Jews said, "No, we can't go there, there are Giants that will surely kill us. No, you aren't real, God. Instead, we will worship Baal who we can see a statue of. No, that miracle didn't happen, it was just coincidence. No No NO, ME ME ME. So, God said, "Fine, have it your way. Wander in the desert until you are dead if you are too scared to trust me, then I will take your children to the promised land." So, God fulfilled his promise and delivered the Jews to the promised land, but it was their choice how they got there. So, God has a plan for us, it is up to us how we get there...or even if we get there. We can always say, "Forget it!" Of course, he will say, "Fine have it your way, go to Hell where you can do what you want, then I will throw you all into the lake of fire when your master is taken care of." Imagine a world where I could just walk up and rape your daughter, and you could kill me for it. Except, there would be no second death. That is hell, where there is "weeping, and gnashing of teeth." We always get what we want folks, but what we want may be the end of us. Our addictions and our lusts are often the instruments of our destruction, because we can do what we want to do. Enough doom and gloom, my point is to answer your question about free will.
