Which theory could explain PSI?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by darryl, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Officially, I don't believe in PSI. By that I mean that while I can't say with 100% confidence that it's false, I'd give it a low enough probability of being true that I generally ignore it.

    But I'm also something of a Fortean, I guess. I don't think that human beings are even close to knowing the final ultimate truth about reality. (I doubt that we ever will achieve that consummation.) That suggests that the unknown will probably always be out there, and if that's so, then it will probably always have the capacity to surprise us by coughing up something anomalous.

    'Believe' is the wrong word. This is more like speculation of a science-fictionish sort.

    I'm inclined to see belief in PSI as kind of a religious phenomenon. And one of the motivating factors, I believe, is that these phenomena hold out the possibility that more idealistic philosophies might be true, that human beings might actually be spiritual beings more than they are physical ones, and the physical world that physics places so much emphasis on might be little more than illusion.

    I'm not particularly attracted to that kind of view, but it's basically what was driving a lot of the old 19'th century-style spiritualism and theosophy.

    I guess that the contemporary versions of this philosophical idealist tradition often appeal to quantum mechanics. Especially to the quantum-idealist interpetations that place great emphasis on the physical role of "observers" (idealism's "minds", in other words) in collapsing wave functions and crystalizing discrete being.

    My own feeling is that the quantum idealist interpretations might in part be the result of early quantum physicists trying to understand their counterintuitive expermental results by turning to philosphy for help, at a time when the predominent philosphy in Germany was idealistic Kantian philsophy.

    It's not impossible, by any means. But nevertheless, my own reaction is 'garbage in-garbage out'. You get bad interpretations of quantum mechanics when you base them on doubtful philosophical speculations. But that's probably not the point. The point is to finally vanquish scientific physicalism and to return to a more spiritualistic conception of the universe. That's why I referred to it as fundamentally a religious phenomenon.

    That doesn't sound very believable to me.

    Despite the skepticism I expressed up above, that would be where I'd look first for an explanation, assuming that I became more convinced that PSI was real.

    Physics, and reality along with it, would really be thrown for a loop (perhaps literally) if causality was temporally symmetrical and could propagate from future to past as easily as from past to future. The time travel paradoxes would show up big-time. And that, in turn, might endow macroscopic existence with some of the stranger characteristics that seems to populate microscopic reality, like superimposed probability states. It sounds outlandish, but the laws of physics do seem to be time-reveral invariant.

    I've long toyed with the sci-fi speculation that the time-travel paradoxes and the associated alternate realities stuff are in fact the exact same phenomenon on the macro-scale as the probability superpositions of quantum weirdness are on the micro-scale. Perhaps in our local region around the big bang causality propagates preferentially in one temporal direction (except for residual retrocausation for microscopic intervals), from the past towards the future away from the blast. That might in turn create time assymmetry, allow a fixed past to crystalize in the pastward direction, and neatly account for the elusiveness of the "now" instant that we all are surfing (it's the big-bang's macroscopic wave-function collapse shockwave) and for the seemingly open possibilities presumably still coexisting out there in the futureward direction.

    I wonder if Tart is another one of the idealists. He would be if his new non-physical laws are mental laws instead. But yeah, if PSI exists, it might well answer to laws of a sort that we've never imagined. We can't rule that out.

    I like my quantum-time speculation.

    That doesn't mean that I believe that it's true though. It probably isn't.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  2. darryl Banned

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    I can't say I am suprised by your response here, most folk say this. A material/physical explanation for paranormal phenomena?? Has never gained much support for a number of reasons.

    1. Most parapsychologists seem to reject any material/physical explanations mainly becase they don't want them!
    2. It appears most parapsychologists only support metaphysical fairytales as theories for PSI such as idealism, they do not want a physical explanation.
    3. Parapsychology (PSI) has not been confirmed by mainstream science, theres no repeatable evidence, so skeptics are not going to bother advocating a theory for something which does not exist!

    Are there any peer reviewed papers for parapsychology theories? Believe it or not the work of Michael Persinger is the closest, also note how Persingers claims have been confirmed and repeated by other researchers - I am not talking about his telepathy claims or remote reviewing here I am talking about how ELF waves has been shown to cause hallucinations in people - which could explain religious, mystical experiences and other reported paranormal experiences etc.

    The closest that we have is the electromagnetic theory, but even these are peer reviewed by parapsychology organizations, not any mainstream scientific ones:

    See the work of Persinger linking paranormal to ELF field and geomagnetism

    Persinger, M.A. (1979). "ELF field mediation in spontaneous PSI events: direct information transfer or conditioned elicitation?". Psychoenergetic Systems 3: 155-169

    Persinger, M.A. (1987). "Spontaneous telepathic experiences from Phantasms of the Living and low global geomagnetic activity". Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 81: 23-36.

    Here is some information about the electromagnetic hypothesis.

    I also managed to find these two:

    Brovetto, P. and V. Maxia. (2008). “Some conjectures about the mechanism of poltergeist phenomenon.” NeuroQuantology 6(2): 1-8.

    Roll, William.G. (2003). “Poltergeists, Electromagnetism and Consciousness.” Journal of Scientific Exploration 17(1): 75–86

    Note how Journal of Scientific Exploration is a fringe science science journal written by parapsychologists and so is NeuroQuantology.

    In short - Mainstream science has not accepted any theory of PSI (even if that theory if physical).
     
  3. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    I wish it did, I spent many a borred, sleepless night (not sleepless for this reason) trying to move stuff or start a little fire or whatever. Unfortunately, it never worked for me. Also, every study done on it indicates that it doesn't work.
     
  4. darryl Banned

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    Very true.

    If Psi exists in humans, then why is no repeatable evidence for it? Why can I not just go into my kitchen now and start moving about objects with my mind? Why can I not do telepathy at will? Proponents of parapsychology have no explanation for this, or they may reply that "the conditions have to be right". Its been over 150 years and these parapsychologists have yet to produce any repeatable evidence. Theres 1000s of books filled with anomous reports and personal experiences, but sadly no repeatable data.
     
  5. darryl Banned

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    A very interesting idea, but not one many scientists would support today.

    Have you seen:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force
     
  6. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    It's pretty hard to scientifically support something that we have so far only disproven in every experiment, but do tell.
     
  7. darryl Banned

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    http://forum.mind-energy.net/81896-post18.html


    ameliewakelin is not the author of that post, it comes from another forum, from months ago.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    interconnectedness or psi forms of empathy and the like can be explained as can why it is virually impossible to evidence this phenonema empirically, except as intuitive or instinctive reactions and experience. ie. Deliberate use of psi immediately neutralises it's reliability to the point of nonsense from a deliberate ability empirical pov.

    Zero Point Theory can account for the mechanism for how FTL communication can occur re: quantum entanglements etc. instantaneous communications which directly relates to the universal constancy of gravity, and how this connectes via the zero point all things of substance in zero dimensional space.
    the theory can be found at
    http://zeropointtheory.com for those that are interested.
    It is a site in development but should offer a complete enough view point on this issue.
    The theory also offers a solution to the universal contancy issue, even when the universe undergoes cosmic expansion.
    It can be extended to include inertia, and the why and what of zero point energy.
    It provides the linchpin between all fields of intellectual endeavour and a way to understand mans precoccupation with power and religion etc.
    but most importantly it provides a way in which science can re-approach it's attitude towards the issues of mental illness and other socio-psychic conditions suchas asthma, ADHD, SIDS etc.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  9. origin Howdy Valued Senior Member

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    Gee, how convinient!:rolleyes:

    By the way, I can become invisible; but only when you are not looking at me. If you look in my direction I will imediately reapear.

    I find these woo-woo guys kinda cute but also a little pathetic.
     
  10. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    it is rather when you consider what is at stake if this was not the case.
    People have been trying to exert mind control manipulations for ages.
    You are damned lucky that this is not so easy to accomplish.
    Your freedom to determine your own future is at stake.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    ...and you know what happens when someone tries to manipulate you psychically... it is the main reason for relationship failure, innate or deliberate pressure being applied to "force" someone eles to do or think the way they want them to..
    It is also the main reason for war and national conflict.

    So it is little wonder is it not that it would be a bit more difficult to gain a better mastership, if not impossible for most, than your proverbial walk in the park. [ JFK ex USA President as a good example of mastership and failure as was Adolf Hitler etc etc]

    The mechanism for psychic connectivitiy is also the mechanism for universal consciousness/unconsciousness and it is also the mechanism for the inconnectedness of all substance - the universal constant - source of gravity - Higgs Boson - God - call it what you like.
    Most people have no idea what they are experiencing and what they are "playing" games with when they contemplate deliberately manipulating using will power only.

    One of the main reasons for a world at war is because so many people get on their knees and pray for peace. The pressure exerted is interpreted by our minds and hearts as manipulation. [a loss of freedom - what I call, self determination violations]

    This is why religion is both a saving grace and also a reason for the existence of hell on Earth.

    It is quite easy to understand once you realise that the "harder you push the slower you go" sort of paradox [ re: zero point theory attraction Paradox ] is involved.
    ...and of course a campaign to discredit psychic phenonema has been in place since day one, since man first realised his precious gift of freedom to think for himself...and what he believed was it's vulnerability to psychic oppression and the need to protect it at all costs - [ see the protection of the holygrail , Knights Templar, Freemasonry, Prior Sion, conspiracy theories etc blah blah blah]

    Why do you think discreditation of any evidence is so important [both consciously and deliberately and deeper subconscioously ] to those who fear exposure and the loss of freedom?

    [​IMG]
    what do you think is at the center of all those heads, arms and legs in the rather splendid image of the creator God Brahma?
    A zero point of course...
    and that is what people are playing with, with their quest for power over others...
    ...and power over others includes "faith healing", "clairvoyency" etc regardless of "good" intent.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  12. origin Howdy Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose I am 'damn lucky' that sex does not result in spontaneous human combustion.:shrug:
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    so you agree ....yes?
     
  14. origin Howdy Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah... nothing.

    WTF are you talking about?

    I will call it 'silly bull shit'.

    That is because most people are sane.

    Do you really believe this crap?:rolleyes:

    The only part of the above I can agree with is blah blah blah.

    No, the evidence is not discredited; there is no evidence to discredit. It is all a bunch of new age crap.
     
  15. origin Howdy Valued Senior Member

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    I am glad that magic is not real, if that is your point.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    [chuckle] oh it's real all right.... over 8 billion Euro spent searching for something that doesn't exist and proving me correct...sort of real..
    would have been better giving it to the Greeks I think...:D
    do you think the universe is that simple to work out and try to control?
     
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Scientists invest 8 billion Euro to find the Higgs Boson.. I wonder why? [silly buggers - nothing more than a glorified and "legitimate" God complex]
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    eh? freewill or the freedom to self determination aint new, that's for sure and is there any evidence of it? [plenty..]

    not to mention a famous scientist quoted as saying "spooky action at a distance.." evidence?
    and the fact that gravity is a universal constant.... now there's plenty of evidence for that...

    I ask you . "Is your own physical body not a source of gravity ?"
    is there evidence that you have a body?
    so what unifies you with every one else on this planet and in this universe and the ground you stand on?
    Have a look at http://zeropointtheory.com should be interesting ...
    why do you think they called the Higgs Boson the "God Particle"? [ even in humor]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  19. origin Howdy Valued Senior Member

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    Have you been drinking or something? The money invested in the LHC has absolutely nothing to do with:

    1. Mind control
    2. psychic 'powers'
    3. Praying that results in war
    4. Your other psyco-babble
     
  20. origin Howdy Valued Senior Member

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    You seem mighty confused. Let me help clarify.
    Things that have no evidence indicating they are anything other than fantasy:

    manipulate you psychically...

    psychic connectivitiy is also the mechanism for universal consciousness/unconsciousness

    One of the main reasons for a world at war is because so many people get on their knees and pray for peace. The pressure exerted is interpreted by our minds and hearts as manipulation. [a loss of freedom - what I call, self determination violations]

    Trying to mix science and woo-woo crap is a waste of time. It is like trying to use physics to explain how Harry Potters magic wand works.
     

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