Which OS'es

Discussion in 'Computer Science & Culture' started by Avatar, Apr 26, 2007.

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Which OSes?

  1. Windows Vista

    15.8%
  2. Windows XP

    68.4%
  3. OSX

    13.2%
  4. Fedora Core (Linux)

    10.5%
  5. Debian (Linux)

    7.9%
  6. Ubuntu (Linux)

    26.3%
  7. Mandriva (Linux)

    2.6%
  8. Gentoo (Linux)

    2.6%
  9. Other Linux

    10.5%
  10. BSD (open, free, other)

    7.9%
  11. Some other OS

    5.3%
  12. Windows 2000

    15.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    XP does have a number of advantages over Win 2k, but not a ton of them. comparing Win2kSP4 to WinXPSP2, XP has better driver support, better security, and a better update delivery mechanism.

    XP is however, a bit slower (even after turning off most of the eye candy), though it's really minor. XP also requires activation, which can be yet another step in fixing/building machines.

    I use 2000 when building machines, since XP is really just a significant point upgrade over XP. Nothing that I NEED. I did make an exception for my mom, as XP's built-in firewall, finally made usefull in SP2, was worth the extra hassle.

    I do however, use XP at work; because that's what our gov't clients use.


    I use OSX for all my java development, writing, video editing, photoshop....basically everything else.

    yeah, count me in there, too.
     
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  3. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    386
    List any drivers that 2k does not support. I've found none myself. Other than those specifically made for XP, but that cannot be said to be an inherent problem with 2k. Therefore is irrelevant.

    As for security, I have to say that is a lie. Windows XP fails at providing security, as I've easily accessed machines before (bypassing the password screen anyone?) which isn't possible on 2k.

    When it comes to web security, I've not even noticed a difference between 2k and XP. Except for one, XP is far more annoying (blocks .exe downloads from MSN, etc) and much more of a hassle to everyone. Unless, of course, you're a complete dunce with computers. I concede that XP is more idiot-proofed.

    As for update delivery: There is only one advantage. It's faster. However, I prefer to use outside applications like BigFix, which can be equally as fast (if not better).

    I disagree. My fathers computer has the exact same hardware as mine, and runs windows XP. I've used emulators, and other games/programs on both PC's. The emulators and other software always runs perfectly on 2k, but is half as fast on XP.

    This is also after I tweaked XP for best performance.

    As I said, idiot-proofed. A more efficient firewall would be Zone Alarm, both free and not as much of a hassle. Although it's not as idiot proofed as XP's firewall.

    And pardon me if I seem a bit perturbed about XP's slower performance. I'm a minimalist. The smaller and more efficient, the better.
     
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  5. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    a good point. I meant built-in periferal support; they substantially beefed up the default driverset in XP to allow for much easier HW upgrading IMO. Autodetection of USB devices is improved (though still far from perfect). And then of course, the items which are artificially limited to XP. not Win2k's fault, but still an issue that needs to be considered.
    exactly!

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    interesting. I wonder if the emulators are trying to use a priority level that XP limits. They did some priority tweaking in XP as well, to allow for better virtualization, and I've heard that some lower-level emulation systems (mainly for OS emulation) needed to be updated to account for those changes.
    the default setting is a very powerful setting. when a majority of computer users are afraid of breaking the thing, they tend not to change settings unless they have to. Zone Alarm, and even XP SP1's firewall, are great, but since neither are installed and on by default, most people didn't use them.

    As someone who deals with computer users all day at work, and then functions as IT for the entire family, idiot-proofing is pretty damn critical.


    What do you think of Vista's new glitz? Any redeeming features for you (automatic back-buffering, for example), or is it just pointless fluff with no rreal function?
     
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  7. Sock puppet path GRRRRRRRRRRRR Valued Senior Member

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    3,112
    I use XP for 3D graphics and video editing I use OSX for flash and stopmotion studio animation. You can feel disgust at my not being pigeonholed to one OS all you want it doesn't effect my productivity or versatility. An OS is not a religion it's a tool

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  8. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    386
    True. But these could have been introduced into 2k, without the massive performance drain. Update the good, don't create something worse.

    Interesting indeed. I've not noticed a difference in how XP handles the emulation, as so far my architecture studies have not revealed one. Yet I may come across it.

    Aside from that, I was also referring to non-emulated games and software. The performance boost could be how 2k handles it compared to XP, combined with the fact that 2k uses far fewer resources.

    I disagree. If Microsoft wants to go down the idiot-proof route, I demand it makes two OS's. "Windows for Dummies" is an example. As it's present course is severely limiting what the more articulate PC users want, as well as making businesses have to pay more for fixing the things (they take longer to fix than their predecessors, in cases I've seen).

    I also function as an "IT" for most people. It gets hectic, but I refuse to associate with people too stupid to learn (family included). So I need not bother with idiot-proofing.

    Touche. I can't say I've advanced knowledge in that area. Mind explaining? Wikipedia only gives a basic idea.
     
  9. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    It's very similar in foundation to OSX's Quartz and Linux's Beryl tech (forget what they call it).

    At a very basic level, the glitz is a bunch of fluff tacked on to one very critical idea - that the OS has a copy of the contents of every window, stored away and always ready for use (in a "back buffer").

    While that requires a bunch of RAM (you theoretically have to keep 10 1200x1024 images in memory if there are 9 full screen windows open @ that resolution along with the desktop itself), it removes the OS's dependance on the applications to draw themselves when asked; thus eliminating the window tearing, hall-of-mirrors, and random-black boxes draw artifacts seen in earlier versions of Windows when an app is busy or hangs. Instead, the app updates the back buffer whenever it gets around to it, and the OS simply draws the back buffer whenever it feel like it - there's always data available.

    It also allows for fancy window effects in real-time, easier dumping of workload off to the GPU, and simpler passing of window state information and contents from one application to another (take, for instance, OS X's built-in ability to convert any window into a PDF).

    The memory usage is mitigated in part by not rasterizing the window objects whenever possible (so a line is only defined as "Line(x,y)" in memory, instead of 1,200 dots), and as I mentioned, much of the actual calculation can be shunted off onto the GPU - but it still does incur system costs.


    edit: also, once this sort of thing is a part of the OS, then applications can take advantage. For instance, since the 2d graphics API for handling these sorts of window transformations can be used not just back buffer data but any image, it was easy enough for Apple to create a public API called CoreGraphics. Anyone wanting to do GPU based image transformation can just call the Core Graphics functions, and get nearly free transparency, 3d rotation, solarize, etc,etc,etc (see all the stupid effects in Apple's PhotoBooth application). I expect that we'll see similar opening of the Vista internal Aero API's soon enough; maybe with SP1. (note: I'm not a Vista programmer, so I might be off on this assumption).
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2007
  10. Kunax Sciforums:Reality not required Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,385
    Have you tried to talk with apple mac support, first sugegsteion from them last time i was forced to call was "have you reinstalled", my reply, "are you insane" but in a different wording

    Macs are nice when standing on a shelf looking pretty and out of reach

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    There be thruth in them there socks
     
  11. river-wind Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,671
    it should be noted strongly that an OS X reinstall and a windows reinstall are vastly different beasts.

    One takes 20 minutes, and doesn't touch the user's files or user settings. The other requires a complete rebuild of the software structure, and user files have to be manually backed up and replaced once all the software has been put back together.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,822
    Bet Windows instable OS keeps you in bucks.

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  13. Roman Banned Banned

    Messages:
    11,560
    Up top mac snobs!
    Yeeah!
     
  14. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    Vive la Resistance! Linux shall prevail!

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  15. Roman Banned Banned

    Messages:
    11,560
    I like that comic. There are some terrific gems in there.
     
  16. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    386
    Mac's are another idiot-proofed machine. It does everything Windows does, only windows does it better. And with more freedom. And more choice. And more options. And a right click button.

    Mac's are the evil of all evils. I mean, god damn, they have to lie in their commercials just to sell Mac's and convert Windows users?! Screw Mac, I will never buy even one of their products. Ever.
     
  17. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,083
    You've obviously never used OSX or were too incompetent in using it.
    Besides you can attach a normal mouse to it too.
     
  18. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,955
    I've never used an Apple product. I have no interest in any prebuilt machine.

    Having said that, even though I find their commercials annoying at times, they make many legitimate points about the flaws of the dominant PC operating systems, especially the security vulnerabilities. My friends and relatives are constantly fouling up their Windows machines with spyware.

    Using computers for a little over six years now, I've only had minor skirmishes with spyware on my own machine, and never a virus. sing Windows XP I run no AV software, and only occasionally run an anti spyware program. But I've seen my relatives turn fairly fast machines to malfunctioning junk with spy/adware. If Apple's operating system is fundamentally more secure from these threats, that is a substantial selling point. Unfortunately, the people I know most in need of one cannot afford it.

    Windows XP works well for me, so I'll stick with it. Windows Genuine Advantage had me seriously contemplating going to Windows 2000. But my soundcard's SPDIF output did not work properly with Win2000, no matter what I tried. Luckily, I found another way to stay ahead of MS.
     
  19. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    386
    To my own demise, I do admit that I have not directly used OSX, nor am I entirely familiar with it. Especially considering the slanderous statements Mac commercials use.

    I have, on the other hand, known about the ability for a Mac to use a two-button mouse for some time. I was merely referencing to older Mac products, which I should have made clear.

    As I said, Mac's are idiot-proofed. If I was too ignorant to use a Mac, I'd have long since fried my PC.

    Yes, but these are not flaws of the OS, these are flaws of people being idiots.

    There are many PC users that are already well accustomed to the simple logic following Mac's claim of security and spyware protection: Making a virus/spyware program for a Mac is like building a business in the Arctic. Nobody lives there.

    It's mind-numbingly obvious that Mac's are pointing out "facts" without making the premise clear. Especially to get business sales.

    As I stated above, Mac's are far from inherently secure. They're merely back-burners, and are thus never targeted. Similarly, my win2k is very out of date. While spyware/viruses still work on it, there are thousands and countless other things which use exploits non-existent in 2k.

    The only plus Mac's have, and a serious downer for those that know wtf we're doing: Idiot. Proofed.

    I see. Let me look up the matter, I might have better luck. I'll PM you with results. First, though, you could PM me your soundcard brand and other required details, so that I may look.
     
  20. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,920
    Um, ok... PCLinuxOS = The most amazingly simple Linux version I've seen, holy Christ this live version is killer. If I figure out how to use Beryl on it that'll be so fucking cool! Holy shit guys my aac files even play without me installing anything, and it's live. This thing reads NTFS partitions and shit, it's crazy.

    You might not see me for awhile now, Linux is far from weak and Vista sux!
     
  21. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,955
    I appreciate the offer, but it is a settled matter for me. It really is a problem of drivers rather than the OS. Philips made good soundcards, but their driver support was poor. There are XP drivers that allow me to use all of my soundcard's features, but not so for Win2K. If future developments make me move to Vista, I'll probably have to buy a new soundcard; I doubt there will be Vista drivers for it. Another reason for me to stay where I am.

    My relatives who aren't computer savvy aren't idiots. They are naive and inexperienced, and not very interested in computers. They only want it to serve a purpose, not to be a hobby. They need machines more like the rest of their appliances; turn it on, and it works. It is only a matter of time before the market delivers this to them. In the meantime, I need to make them pay more attention when I deliver them clean, well functioning machines with the admonition "You need to buy an antivirus/anti spyware program to keep it this way". They ignore me, then foul it up again. At least my mom listened. Trend Micro's anti virus has kept her machine functioing well for over two years now. And no one who regularly uses a computer is less technical than my mother.

    If an operating system is designed to be used by the marginally computer literate, then it needs to be less vulnerable to exploitation by malware (at least than XP, I can't say about vista). If Apple starts to make PC manufacturers/MS lose some marketshare, hopefully they will respond with substantial improvements, rather than just more advertising. Then everyone wins.
     
  22. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    386
    Soundcards are cheaper than an OS. Hint. Hint hint.

    Very well, ignorant. It is of my personal opinion, however, that if you use a machine as advanced as a computer, you had better understand it enough to keep it operational whence it declines in function.

    I know few people that aren't stupid, and they are computer savvy enough to solve simple problems, or they research it. This is because intellectuals prefer to learn, rather than rely. So I must disagree with your observation of your family on my assumed premise. As illogical as that may be, it's merely an opinion.

    I see. Uninstall it, junk it, and don't waste more money. Avast! Anti Virus Home Edition is all you'll require. It's free, though was commercial. A simple test run might prove it more efficient (if not superior).

    As for spyware, Ad-aware and spybot are all that are required. I'm sure you know that. Although few people ever browse for as efficient and free an anti-virus as ad-aware. Since I strive to be a minimalist as well as a very efficient person, I do believe ad-aware will be to your liking.

    The literate persons are never infected by malware to begin with. And if they are, know how to remove it.

    Hah. Apple. In a mac-supporters wet-dream, perhaps. If you'll pardon my hostility.
     
  23. John99 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    22,046
    good points Jeremy.
     
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