Which came first? Language or thought?

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by Magical Realist, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. rr6 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    635
    Patterns > Sets/groups > Maths >Triangles > Trigonometry > Abacus > Arabic Numerals

    Imaging in mind led to picto-graphs/picto-ligusitiscs. Think stick men, birds snakes/serpents.

    Much of Fullers speculations on evolution of humanity revolves around maritime sea-peoples experiences. He believed trigonometry was invented by sea-peoples navigating between islands in the south pacific/Idonesia.

    The oldest abacus'es ever found--- in China ---have 13 columns. I have a modern one and it has 13 columns. Fuller takes note that we have 8 fingers, 2 ankles, 2 wrist and 1 neck, that total to 13. A sea person could do trigonometry by moving circular loops of rope/hemp/seaweed from various positions on their body to do calculations.

    Fuller take note of some peoples in eastern africa that have these shells or something with images carved into them, hanging from the ear lobes. So he believes these earliest seea-people could have had the celestial star charts carved into sea shells that they could hang from there ear lobes. So now, if a sea person is washed overboard, he could climb back onto his raft/canoe/primitive ocean going vehicle and not lost any of his mathematical tools, or charts because they were all attached to his body.

    This may have led to the invention of the 13 column abacus with shells to slide on the stick or bone columens and better boats to store their mathematical charts and tools for doing the math's. Then some sea-person or peoples became stranded on desert lands, and wanted to do there mathematics/triaongometry but maybe there abacus has been lost and there is no immediate stock building and abacus.

    So they draw it in the sand. They develop "hash" marks--- Fraggles remarks see babylonians ---but at some point they need a symbol for the empty first column. The ziphra/cipher/zero is invented is invented and later goes on to Europe--- via the Moors ---and changes the whole world from Romans more simple-minded hash marks, to the more more symbolic/abstract Arabic numericals.

    I also take note of peoples in Indonesia( Borneo etc ) that take pride in their long extended/stretch ear lobes, that the may or may not have stuff hanging in them. They probably do for some relious reasons or whatever cause that is also what the acnestors have all done so it is passed on culturely. But the true orgins probably go bacl the need to have a place to have valuable charts attached to ones body, and less chance to loose valuable information if washed overboard at sea, on big river, or even on land.

    r6
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,592
    It seems obvious that thoughts predated language. Then language & thought began to reinforce each other. Language allowed expressing thoughts to others resulting in interactions enlightening both people in a conversation. Language also enabled a person to improve his own thought processes.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,691
    If there is no thought, then what is there to talk about?

    Not that that ever stops some people.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,160
    Thought is connected to all our senses. We can smell a flower and think about an association. Language is limited to only a subset of all the possible audio (word noises) and visual (printed pages) input. Thoughts uses this plus the entire range of all the senses. An analogy is, we don't need to know physics (language) to throw a ball with accuracy (thought), even though physics can provide all the equations to express what is going on. Often we think way before we learn the language equivalent.

    Two hundred years ago the average person was lucky to have a three years of elementary school as their education with few able to read or write. That means their language skills were equal to that of a child. Yet they could do things beyond the words because they could still think. If language came first that would mean they could never have left childhood behavior, which is not supported by the facts. They were more self sufficient than many people of today, since language has dumbed them down by thinking for them and telling them this comes first; propaganda and memorization. To be self sufficient you need all your sense and not just two subsets.
     
  8. rr6 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    635
    Thoughts came before texticonic language.

    Numerical language preceded written languge.

    It is believed---and there is some minor evidence ---that porposes or dolphins are the only other animals that have individual names for each of its progeny.

    r6
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    ]if animals can count thought precedes language. Even I often am thinking of something and try to express it in to others and I say "aah whats the word?" So clearly my thoughts are coming first and another part of my mind is putting them to words, and sometimes failing. The question should not be which comes first, because it obviously thought, fuck you Chomsky, the question should be does language alter thought (in some kind of feedback loop) and to what extend does language alter thought. Is newspeak possible? probably not, but lojban is.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,140
    [duplicate]
     
  11. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,048
    Animals think, but with feelings and pictures.

    So thought must of came first.
     

Share This Page