Where Am I Wrong About Palestine?

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(whew) I was starting to look at demographics before '48 and we know how a lot of Arab bureaucrats tend to SUCK at paperwork- it's just a mess trying to sort out. I'd rather hash things out, with faith that nobody here is trying to deliberately deceive, and we check up on what we want to when it's really controversial.

 

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OK Tyler, sorry for the confusion over who I was responding to last post- I sorta get caught up in this at times.

Tyler"many left Israel of their own accord"
OK, Tyler, why didn't you go on to describe the Haganah and IDF's "purity of arms" propaganda. Anyone with a shred of objectivity acknowledges that zionism gained its most dramatic foothold in what's modern Israel through terrorism: Execution, massacre, torture, destruction of homes, neighborhoods, etc. - all occured on a wide scale as a matter of historical record- not just Arab "propaganda". Israelis and their supporters are coming to grips with this, and it is painful, but all concerned must consider historical contexts while shaping a peaceful future. As I was discussing with ConsequentAtheist, there is not much point in an endless loop of murdermouth comparisons of whose fighters were the most psychopathic. Palestinians unquestionably fled in terror before Haganah and IDF, with various pledges in the grapevine and press from Arab leaders, that their flight to avoid the carnage would be most temporary, and all would be set right shortly through the "solidarity of Arab brotherhood".

Hype: "If she is threatened (and of course she is) then Israel must get international help to stop the cycle of escalation"
I believe that this safety net has been squandered so often, but is the fastest route to a better life for Israelis and Palestinians. Israeli force of arms will never quell Arab resentment, but will on the contrary inflame it.
" You think that's about to come? "
That is just it: America is moving into this paranoid frame of mind also, and it is the antithesis of rationality. Yes, Tyler, it is about to come. It's always about to come until you make peace. Peace will arrive after Israel and the rest of the world take a completely different posture on this problem. Now, if demographics were vastly different here, Israel could follow the American model: Kill most Palestinians with guns and disease, march the rest on a Trail of Tears to various diminishing and more distant reservations, until finally they pose no threat to the new nation. America did not accomplish this genocidal nation-building through some cleverness and resolve the Israelis lack- The conquest of N. America was an entirely different situation. In the case of Israel, Israel is the reservation, armed to the teeth, waiting for Wounded Knee, and will eventually have it, if you let men like Sharon guide your destiny to the bitter end. Hey! You're threatening my people! No, I am trying to explain that militant and xenophobic aspects of zionism are threatening the future security of Israel.

OK Arafat. You say "I'm not demonizing one person for my own purpose - there is no one else Israel can deal with!"
Israel can't ignore Arafat in negotiation. I don't like his two-faced politics either, but until he finally leaves the stage, he has come to personify, however unfortunate that may be, the Palestinian struggle- the struggle of words, arms, and even "martyrs". You can dislike Arafat all you want. Sharon can dislike him all he wants, call him any name in the book- but the most basic requirements of international legitimacy require that Israel negotiate with whomever is sent on Palestinians' behalf. It is the most crass and facile abdication of Sharon's diplomatic duty to his people for him to declare a personality as justification for ceasing negotiation. I actually believe there was a powerful truth to the concept of the "Peace of the Brave" and that the bloodiest hands, clasped in agreement, could have at the right moment changed the course of history. That chance was squandered, and now we have to move on from there. It is just a fact of diplomacy that you don't get to choose the other side's delegate. And yes, Israel should be talking even to Hamas too. Consider the advise of the UK's Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks who has met and communicated with all sorts of "untouchables" in the Arab and Muslim world. You're attitude ("I'm discussing what steps can be taken to peace. The first major step would be an election in the Palestinian world. If Arafat wins, well, then we're damned.") smacks of fear and defeatism to me.

Looking back at your post regarding callousness of other Arab countries regarding Palestinian refugees, there is much I cannot defend. However, I watched Lebanon destroyed by the results of admitting so many disaffected people, who were then manipulated by Iran and others in the long story of the death of Lebanon. But that's another thread.

Thanks for this conversation, Tyler.
Shalom

 

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Why didn't any pro-Israelis respond to Captain Canada's post on the immigration policies of Israel? Too afraid?

 

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What difference does it make? To each country its own border policy. I dont think anyone has to justify anything about an immigration policy.

 

Fairfield

It's not a jewish refugee camp, it's a full blowned state.

-------------

I agree with Captain Canada that palestinians are not racists, they are in political conflict with a state that stole from them their own land.

It's a shame that uninformed white america has a psychological tendency to recognize itself and the Isrealis just because they are white and disfavor the Palestines because of the marked cultural differences that set them apart.

Prisme

 

Fairfield

It's not a jewish refugee camp, it's a full blowned state.

 

it's a full blowned [apartheid] state

 

"Anyone with a shred of objectivity acknowledges that zionism gained its most dramatic foothold in what's modern Israel through terrorism"

I'd say Israel gained it's most dramatic foothold in two wars they didn't start - '48 and '67. That they commited horrible acts in the former is not something I will deny. However, as you've said, the blame-game is no good here because both sides did their bad.


"unquestionably fled in terror before Haganah and IDF, with various pledges in the grapevine and press from Arab leaders, that their flight to avoid the carnage would be most temporary"

They fled before Israel became a state in 1948. In 1947 the Arab nations told the UN they would not accept a state of Israel and the governments began encouraging Palestinians to leave the '48 boundaries of Israel so as to avoid being casualties of war. Many did, indeed, leave at this point.


"Israeli force of arms will never quell Arab resentment, but will on the contrary inflame it"

Quid pro quo; you're all of a sudden Prime Minister of Israel with a majority party - what do you do?


"Yes, Tyler, it is about to come. It's always about to come until you make peace"

I hate to say this, but you sound like a rather stereotypical "tree-hugger" with this comment. Peace is not always about to come. It's a nice dream to think it is, but sadly that's not the way the world works. If every single human being on earth wanted peace, there'd be a chance. As of now I'd doubt even half the people truly care. And I pose a question that you've yet to answer, though I've asked twice; if a peace agreement was reached which did not involve the destruction of Israel (that is, the mandatory acceptance of 3 million refugees) would Hamas be happy and not push for any more?


"No, I am trying to explain that militant and xenophobic aspects of zionism are threatening the future security of Israel."

1) How is Israel overly militant? They've done nothing the Palestinians haven't.
2) How is Israel xenophobic in any way the Palestinians aren't?


"but the most basic requirements of international legitimacy require that Israel negotiate with whomever is sent on Palestinians' behalf"

And like I've said - that's just dandy, but it won't work! Arafat has requested an action that would destroy Israel as a nation. In 30 years of being in power he has not shown one sign of letting up on this demand. And I guarantee you Israel will not sign over it's death.


"is just a fact of diplomacy that you don't get to choose the other side's delegate"

In this case - neither does the other side. Tell me, would you have advised in 1938 to appease Hitler?


"And yes, Israel should be talking even to Hamas too"

Here, I'll sum up the discussion for you:
Israel - What is it you want?
Hamas - You guys out. Palestine in place.
Israel - Are you after the "occupied territories", or what?
Hamas - No, no. You guys - out. Us - in.
Israel - What are we going to negotiate over?
Hamas - Nothing. You guys, out.

Hamas has made it quite, quite clear in the past that their goal is the actual physical destruction of Israel. I don't see how you "negotiate" with a side that literally will take no less than your whole nation. And no, I don't believe Hamas represent the desires of the majority of Palestinians.


"Looking back at your post regarding callousness of other Arab countries regarding Palestinian refugees, there is much I cannot defend"

My point on that was not to illustrate that Arab nations treat Palestinians like shit (though they tend to) - it was to illustrate what the PLO, Hamas and the other known representatives of hte Palestinian population are all about. That is, they are against the Jewish occupation of any land which in Islamic tradition "should" belong to Moslems. The PLO couldn't give a shit about hte land Lebanon and Jordan stole from them. In 1965 when they began they didn't care about West Bank, Gazaa Strip or any of the land Egypt held that those nations had stolen from Palestine in the 1948 war. I realize this may sound like a stereotypical jump to some - but let's be honest, this is because Israel is Jewish. I personally see no other reason for Palestinians and many of their supporters to call Israeli's murderers and theives for taking their land and putting their people in camps but when Jordan and Lebanon do it the motto seems to be to turn the other cheek. I'm no raving Jewish lunatic who sees anti-Semitism at every turn, this example just happens to stand out for me. Remember, the West Bank and Gazaa weren't called "occupied territories" until they fell into Jewish hands.

 

"Why didn't any pro-Israelis respond to Captain Canada's post on the immigration policies of Israel?"

I actually didn't see it. You mean the point about Jews being granted immediate citizenship?
I don't agree with that. It was initiated for very valid reasons, but now seems rather unfair. The only time I could see it being useful is if the Israeli's for some god-unknown reason agreed to the PLO's demand of letting the refugees back in. Then that aspect of immigration would be the only way to keep Israel from turning into Palestine.


"I agree with Captain Canada that palestinians are not racists"

Then I ask you as well; why don't they care about hte land Jordan and Lebanon stole from them and the people these nations imprison? Why do they only care when Jews hold it?


"It's a shame that uninformed white america has a psychological tendency to recognize itself and the Isrealis just because they are white and disfavor the Palestines because of the marked cultural differences that set them apart."

Actually, middle-class white America (and Europe) has a tendancy to vote for the underdog. Before Israel became the dominant military force most of the world supported Israel. As soon as Egypt was no longer a threat and Jordan and Lebanon had their own problems to worry about and stopped trying to destroy Israel the world switched sides.

And I'd venture a guess that 95% of people with an opinion on this (or any other political) topic are grossly mis/uninformed. That's the nature of Western politics. People don't really care to learn anything.

 

BTW, ALL of the Jewish people I know support the Existence of Israel. I know Jews all across North America and a few in Europe.
You think we're bird brained, Fairfield. I could say many things to that, but you and I know that its just an immature comment. I said this many times, insults in debating only show a lack of premiss.

Oh, yes, I support Israel

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Maybe you don't know me?

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I'm not going to argue with your so-called "observed zionist tactics". People of any nationality have a right to live there and Jews are no exeption.

Of course, but then what about Arabs? They have no right to live their according to Israeli immigration policy.

Fairfield, if your not Jewish, I'd doubt you know what we think.

OK, that's too much.

Shut the hell up, "we" are not all the same, some of us are black, some of us are white, some of us speak English, some Yiddish, some Ladino or Arabic, some Syriac. Some of us are Zionists, some of us aren't. Some of us are anti-Israel. Some of us have "Jewish blood", some of us don't. So, maybe he doesn't know what some of us think, but I think for the most part the way he does-- there are many Jews who are totally against Zionism, which is really imperialism and ethnocentrism.

(Theres no such thing as a japanese Jew!!!!)

Oh, of course not, people with slanted eyes can't be Jewish, it's not possible!

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Open your eyes to the world, if people want to be Jewish, they don't have to have a certain colour of skin, or certain facial proportions, they needn't have big noses, or black hair. They don't have to be bankers.

But not even all Jews qualify for Israeli immigration policies, you need some sort of official document from before 1990 saying you or a family member is Jewish, such as a birth, marriage, or death certificate. You also need the document proving that you are related to them. No matter if you live in a synagogue, you have to have a document. No matter if you give all your food to the poor and recite the Torah continuously until you pass out every morning, you need a document. So not only is it biased towards Jews, it's biased towards Jews with documents. The man who is thought to be the oldest in the world is thought to be upwards of 150 years old. He has no documents, however, so he is merely a footnote in the recordbooks. Those who take care of him are not his children, as they have all perished, or his grandchildren, as they have too, or his great-grandchildren, as they're all old and grey, or they have perished too, but rather his great-great-grandchildren. They take turns staying with him, giving him baths, etc, and there is even genetic evidence of his relation to them. Assuming that at youngest a woman could give birth at the age of 10, and that this happened each generation, he could be 40 years old, but that is highly doubtful. More realistic is the idea that ages of marriage are creeping up over the ages, so it can be assumed that he is at least 140, and it is quite possible that he is 150. But no, documents are required. There is no other way, even if they had a dentist or a doctor place an age on him from careful examination, it still doesn't count, he needs a birth certificate.

 

So, they don't REALLY have a right to be there? I don't think it really matters if there is a Jewish majority or not. Why does it matter to you? Because the land will be contaminated with Arab cooties?

 

Tyler: "if a peace agreement was reached which did not involve the destruction of Israel (that is, the mandatory acceptance of 3 million refugees) would Hamas be happy and not push for any more?"
There would then be no justification for Hamas, and under such agreement there would finally be enough return to civilization & security to truly hunt down the remainiing violent minority on both sides of this mindless fued, instead of perpetuating it.

Tyler: "How is Israel overly militant? They've done nothing the Palestinians haven't."
You can't be serious. Let's set aside the grossly uneven body count. Have you ever imagined what your life would be like as a Palestinian in Gazaa? When has a Palestinian searched your house lately? Or bulldozed it? When did someone in the full uniform of the Palestinian Authority last catch an unruly Jewish kid and break his pre-adolescent ribs, arms, or skull? Or simply shoot him like a rabid dog? I don't like these lines of discussion, they lead nowhere.

Tyler: " How is Israel xenophobic in any way the Palestinians aren't?"
Palestinians have never barricaded themselves into a national fortress. Palestinians have never had a police state. Palestinians do not pepper political debates with the word "anti-semite/ism", although it semanticly applies equally to them. Palestinians have not had their intifadeh ruled as racist by the UN.

Tyler: "Arafat has requested an action that would destroy Israel as a nation.'
And I hereby request an action that everyone on the planet give me $100. That doesn't mean I don't have to bargain tomorrow to earn a living. The majority of palestinians will gladly bargain equitably when weapons and thugs stop drowning out their reasonable talking. The onus is on the powerful to de-escalate.

Tyler: "Tell me, would you have advised in 1938 to appease Hitler?"
Even if my family were not half Czech, I am against ethnic cleansing and illegal annexation. I was hoping you might have already noticed this, or at least would be above such cheap shots.

Tyler: "I'm no raving Jewish lunatic who sees anti-Semitism at every turn..."
That's good. I know you wouldn't have the stomach for this interchange, if you were that badly brainwashed.

Tyler: "Israel is Jewish"
So perhaps you'd like a world where Germany is Aryan; America is Puritan. A place for everyone, and everyone in their place. What a lovely world vision.

Tyler: "Remember, the West Bank and Gazaa weren't called "occupied territories" until they fell into Jewish hands."
OK I think I can remember that.

 

Tyler:
"Here, I'll sum up the discussion for you:
Israel - What is it you want?
Hamas - You guys out. Palestine in place.
Israel - Are you after the "occupied territories", or what?
Hamas - No, no. You guys - out. Us - in.
Israel - What are we going to negotiate over?
Hamas - Nothing. You guys, out."

OK, now I'll give it a try:

Arabs - people
Jews - people
Israel - Palestine
Palestine - Israel
Situation - Live or Die Together
Solution - Live Together
Peace Process - Comprehend the Above (repeat as necessary)

 

"There would then be no justification for Hamas, and under such agreement there would finally be enough return to civilization & security to truly hunt down the remainiing violent minority on both sides of this mindless fued, instead of perpetuating it."

What makes you think Hamas is a minority?


"Let's set aside the grossly uneven body count"

Go make a check on how many of the Palestinians dead were iether hunted down terrorists or gunmen trying to break into Israel. (In my experience, no such numbers can be found - but about half of the stories I've read about Palestinian deaths involve this)


"Or simply shoot him like a rabid dog?"

When was the last time an Israeli walked into the most peaceful area of the entire nation and blew up a University cafeteria?


"Palestinians have not had their intifadeh ruled as racist by the UN"

Which I find quite interesting. "Kill Jews" seems to be a teensy bit racist to me. And, yes, I realize the intifada does not specifically state "Jews" - but when was the lsat time a Palestinian opened fire on a Druze or Moslem in Israel?


"doesn't mean I don't have to bargain tomorrow to earn a living"

What evidence to you suggests Arafat will 'bargain'??? Here, I'll explain it in simple terms:
- Arafat has had this demand for 30 years
- In 2000 there were peace talks
- Israel offered back almost everything Arafat stated he wanted, except the 3 mil. refugees and East Jerusalem
- Because Arafat didn't get absolutely everything he wanted, he announced a war


"The majority of palestinians will gladly bargain equitably when weapons and thugs stop drowning out their reasonable talking"

Then why don't they call off the intifada and ask for peace talks?


"The onus is on the powerful to de-escalate"

Wrong, the onus is on those who control the war. If Israel stopped killing terrorists and the such Hamas would continue to attack. If Hamas stopped killing Israeli's and the intifada was stopped, there would likely be peace talks.


"I am against ethnic cleansing and illegal annexation"

Allow me to rephrase - forgetting Hitler's killing of Jews would you have advised appeasing Hitler? Hitler said "I want all of Europe". They offered Hitler part of Czech. He said "yes" and then continued the war for what he wanted. Arafat has said "I want all of Israel". Israel offered part of the land. Arafat said "no".


"So perhaps you'd like a world where Germany is Aryan; America is Puritan"

Hardly, but I don't think it fair that Israel is forced to take in 3 million under-educated people. So far, Arafat has shown absolutely no desire to let up on this demand. Another high ranking official in the PLO did - and he was going to run against Arafat in the election. Unfortunatly, Arafat being the intelligent man that he is realized he could loose the race and so he pulled out.


"OK I think I can remember that."

And what does it indicate to you?


"Peace Process - Comprehend the Above (repeat as necessary)"

Come on. This is a Fred Penner plan for peace. Peace is not that simple. Especially not when you have two sides where a large portion of each want to eliminate the other. I wish for peace. I think it is a good idea that Israel give West Bank and Gazaa (and Palestinian settlements) to a new Palestine. I think Jordan and Lebanon should have to give back the land they stole (though they won't). I think the refugees should be released from their camp and then be allowed into the new state of Palestine. I think East Jerusalem belongs to Israel but I'm willing to allow a third-party controlled city of East J. I believe there are moderates in the PLO who desire exactly this. I know for a fact htere are two parties in Israel who desire exactly this. I also know for a fact that Arafat has not been willing to settle for this in 30 years. And I've yet to see evidence he will change his mind one morning.



GB-Gil;
Long time no speak!

"So, they don't REALLY have a right to be there?"

The refugees? No. No more than many of the Jews in Israel and around the world deserve land in Germany. No more than my family should be allowed free land in Russia. No more than my grandfather...


"Why does it matter to you? Because the land will be contaminated with Arab cooties?"

Nope. Because I'm quite sure (no, not totally) that if Palestine was created and then Israel became a majority of Palestinians they would simlpy unite. It would only make sense for them to do so.

 

Interestingly enough, there was an article in the NYTimes today about Hamas.

- http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/21/international/middleeast/21MIDE.html?pagewanted=2

 

Since when was killing people part of the intifadeh?

The intifadeh involves civil resitance, and minimal amounts of violence. Intifadeh means throwing rocks at tanks, but not blowing up restaurants. Hamas isn't part of the intifadeh, but rather a more radical campaign.

Another example of the intifadeh is a whole refugee camp not obeying curfews, or a family not paying taxes to Israel.

Then there is the even less radical sumud, which means trying to survive, where one tries to lay low and avoid any brushes with police or soldiers and to stay hidden.

The refugees? No. No more than many of the Jews in Israel and around the world deserve land in Germany. No more than my family should be allowed free land in Russia. No more than my grandfather...

So, then the Jews had no right to Israel in 1948? Wow, finally we agree!

Nope. Because I'm quite sure (no, not totally) that if Palestine was created and then Israel became a majority of Palestinians they would simlpy unite. It would only make sense for them to do so.

What's wrong with that? If they were a majority, they wouldn't have a problem with Israelis anymore, unless Israelis still invaded their cities and killed their families, so they probably wouldn't hurt them. After all, now that the conflict in the Republic of Ireland has ended, catholics don't go around shooting protestants or the other way around, that has all ended, and the groups now live in peace.

And as for Arafat rejecting a 97% deal-- look at Northern Ireland. The leader of the IRA accepted a deal in which all but 6 of the counties would become independant from the UK, and now what is happening?

 

Speaking of Israel...

I met a seriously cute Israeli girl here the other day.

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*Adam stuffs his brain back in his pants...*

 

"Hamas isn't part of the intifadeh, but rather a more radical campaign"

What has the PLO done to stop Hamas? Seems to me the PLO is rather enjoying what Hamas does. Not to mention Hamas started this huge wave of attacks when the word "intifada" left Arafat's lips.


"So, then the Jews had no right to Israel in 1948? Wow, finally we agree!"

What do you mean by "right to Israel"? It was given to them from land that was more or less "owned" by the British and the UN. The Ottoman broke up, the British took some of the land and gave some to the Jews.


"they wouldn't have a problem with Israelis anymore, unless Israelis still invaded their cities and killed their families"

Was it Israel who walked out of peace negotiations and announced they would start killing Palestinians? I'm sorry, I may have missed that 3 years ago. And what do you mean by "their" cities? You mean the settlements in West Bank and Gazaa? I'm sorry, those haven't been Palestinian cities since before Jordan and Lebanon stole them from Palestine.

My problem, GB, is not that Palestinians should live in Israel. I could give a flying fuck who lives there. I just don't see it as fair to force Israel to take 3 million uneducated people in. No nation has been forced to do this in recent wars. I also don't see why Arafat wants this unless he wants the destruction of Israel. Let's play pretend for a second.

- Israel and PLO by some miraculous method reach a peace agreement where various lands including West Bank and Gazaa unite to become new Palestine.
- Why wouldn't Arafat want the 3 million refugees to just go to new Palestine? Why does he demand they get into Israel?


"And as for Arafat rejecting a 97% deal"

So then you admitt Arafat is not about to negotiate - finally, we agree on something!


Adam; I found the Israeli women tended to be in ridiculously good shape most of the time. The whole army thing, I guess.

 

What has the PLO done to stop Hamas? Seems to me the PLO is rather enjoying what Hamas does. Not to mention Hamas started this huge wave of attacks when the word "intifada" left Arafat's lips.

Well, actually, Hamas is part of the PLO. I think you meant PA, and not PLO, as Hamas is not part of the PA. And why not stop Hamas? If Israel won't stop the IDF killing innocents, then why should PA stop Hamas killing innocents? If you say PA likes it, then I can just as truthfully say the Knesset likes it when the IDF kills innocents.

And I think you must be a little slow, when the Intifadeh started, there were small amounts of civilian casualties when Israeli troops collided with demonstrations etc., and for this Hamas launched a massive military campaign.

And, of course, Hamas isn't a terrorist organisation. ...unless IDF is...

After all, Hamas does do its share of combat with genuine Israeli soldiers, just like Israeli soldiers combat Hamas, and both kill innocents. The only difference is that one is officially part of a government, and the other one is only sort of part of one.

What do you mean by "right to Israel"? It was given to them from land that was more or less "owned" by the British and the UN. The Ottoman broke up, the British took some of the land and gave some to the Jews.

Wait, hold on. I wasn't saying that from nowhere, I quoted you, and responded. Maybe you ignored the quote?

Here it is again:

...no more than the Jews from around the world deserve land in Israel...

See my point?

Was it Israel who walked out of peace negotiations and announced they would start killing Palestinians?

When did Palestine announce they would start killing civilians? Sorry, I may have missed that 3 years ago.

You are ignoring what I am saying. 97% land deals-- one such deal we both know Arafat rejected-- have had bad effects in history. Sure, now Ireland is in peace... except Northern Ireland.

And what do you mean by "their" cities? You mean the settlements in West Bank and Gaza?

Yes, the ones that have been there since long before Jews began mass immigration to the fertile crescent.

I'm sorry, those haven't been Palestinian cities since before Jordan and Lebanon stole them from Palestine.

What? What the hell? If any of these parties stole anything from one another, it's the Palestinians who stole Jordan. Now only 30% of the population of Jordan is genetically Jordanian, most are Palestinian refugees.

I just don't see it as fair to force Israel to take 3 million uneducated people in.

You mean the same ones they forced out?

No nation has been forced to do this in recent wars.

Just as no nation has recently driven 3 million people from their homeland.

I also don't see why Arafat wants this unless he wants the destruction of Israel.

Because he has the common interests of all Palestinians in mind. The vast majority of people living in the occupied territories are for the right of return.

Let's play pretend for a second.

You still do that? OK, you be a ballerina, I'll be a spaceman!

- Israel and PLO by some miraculous method reach a peace agreement where various lands including West Bank and Gazaa unite to become new Palestine.
- Why wouldn't Arafat want the 3 million refugees to just go to new Palestine? Why does he demand they get into Israel?

I really don't think he would demand they get into Israel, he never has...

So then you admitt Arafat is not about to negotiate - finally, we agree on something!

No, it was a few years ago when that happened, not the future.

 

"I think you meant PA"

Yup, sorry.


"If Israel won't stop the IDF killing innocents, then why should PA stop Hamas killing innocents?"

I'm not going to suggest Israel hasn't done it's fair share of terrible attacks. It's simply a fact that when Israel stops making attacks, Hamas does not. It was only a week ago that there was no recent suicide bombings and two Hamas gunmen tried to get inside Israel. The Hamas assassins (I'm taking a wild stab that they weren't just travelling to a gun show - fair enough?) were shot dead. Hamas officials then stood up and said that Israel must pay for it's attack. I'm sorry, it's an attack when Israel kills people in the process of trying to kill it's civilians?


"and for this Hamas launched a massive military campaign."

Actually, Hamas had been making suicide attacks up until the peace talks began. Then there was a break. Then the intifada started and many Palestinians came out for peaceful and not-so-peaceful (though not exactly life-threatening) protest. When Israeli troops began interfering in the protest there was exchanged gunfire and Hamas launched the war.


"And, of course, Hamas isn't a terrorist organisation"

I realize the subjectivity with the word "terrorist". However, Hamas is not a military in the manner the IDF is. When Hamas agents commit attrocious acts there is no chance for being tried. Hamas will never be condemned by an international group as a representative of Palestinians at all. An Israeli officer orders his men to shoot a couple of civilians up and the world responds with loud protest. Hamas gets called down by the NYTimes and that's about it.


"After all, Hamas does do its share of combat with genuine Israeli soldiers"

Oh come on now. You're anti-Israeli I'm pro-Israeli but for the sake of honesty to ourselves let's just admitt this is bullshit. I can think of one attack on Israeli military in the last, oh, 6 months.


"...no more than the Jews from around the world deserve land in Israel..."

I don't think you understood what I was saying. I said the 3 million Palestinian refugees don't deserve land any more than I deserve land in Russia or the Jews in Israel deserve land in Germany. Not that the Jews didn't deserve land in Israel (because, frankly, that's not a fair discussion - the land was Britain's and they chose to give it to the Jews who had no homeland after WWII).


"When did Palestine announce they would start killing civilians? Sorry, I may have missed that 3 years ago?"

Perhaps I'm looking too much at history here - but what did the first intifada consist of? I seemed to believe that when Arafat ditched peace and said "intifada" that it would be something similar to the first one.


"-- have had bad effects in history."

Where, besides Ireland?
So then I take it that you don't believe in negotiations in politics? One side should decide what it wants and never settle for less? That seems unlike you.


"Yes, the ones that have been there since long before Jews began mass immigration to the fertile crescent"

And the Jews were in Austria before WWII. Should they get land back there? Should Austria be forced now to take back all the Jews that left when Hitler invaded?


"If any of these parties stole anything from one another, it's the Palestinians who stole Jordan"

Er... Jordan and Lebanon took land from what was suppose to be Palestine in the 1948 war.


"Just as no nation has recently driven 3 million people from their homeland."

Perhaps you can give me a quote that says Israel drove out 3 million people? Cause personally, I seem to remember it being something less than a million - some of whom left of their own accord. And the 3 million were just the decendants, eh?

Oh, and yeah - The German empire drove out around that many Jews during WWII.


"I really don't think he would demand they get into Israel, he never has..."

The refugees? Yes he has. That was one of the demands the PLO has collectively held since 1965. And one that Israel has never agreed to.


"No, it was a few years ago when that happened, not the future."

I'm sorry, but I'm less optimistic on this than you all seem to be. When a man hasn't given up on some big things for 38 years of his life, I really don't see him just up and changing any day. Now, if the PLO were to hold elections or if another Palestinian were to get into power... Well, then I'd be very, very optimistic. I was excited when Arafat was suggesting he might agree to an election. There was much talk that a more moderate and modern Palestinian was set to win. I figured there was a huge chance for peace. Then, of course, Arafat pulled out.