Whence comes logic

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Speakpigeon, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    I agree that the logic of even our most basic actions is beyond the reach of our current methods of formal logic. Basically, there are way too many possibilities. But with a proper calculus and perhaps things like quantum computation, who knows...
    EB
     
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  3. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    No.
    Logic might well evolve over the next million of years as per natural selection but no knowledge of facts will affect the logic your brain is capable of during the comparatively short span of our lives.
    Knowledge obviously can affect formal logic, though. Formal logic is a human invention and has already changed a lot from the time of Aristotle.
    EB
     
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  5. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    We never dip into the same river twice.
    EB
     
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  7. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Once is plenty! But I'm keeping my same dipper.
    Okay, but it's not me with whom you are agreeing, because that's not what I said: it's the converse. I said - and still maintain, despite disagreement at widely varying levels of erudition - essential problem-solving is the basis of all reasoning, upon which the esoteric formal logical systems are built. The fundamental process doesn't need to explicate itself; it doesn't need to be solved-for; it didn't even become self-reflexive until it had been working effectively for some 200 million years.
     
  8. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    It's definitely not the same but I don't see how it would be the converse.
    I agree with that, if that's OK with you, and if the expression "essential problem-solving" is the same thing as logic as a capacity of at least the human brain.
    Sure, again I seem to agree, but that doesn't seem to equate with formal logic not possibly becoming useful, possibly very useful, perhaps even crucial for solving some of the most difficult problems of humanity. This would require formal logic to become more effective and powerful than our brute sense of logic is, which maybe isn't quite as easy as initially envisaged by philosophers and mathematicians but not yet out of question.
    EB
     
  9. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Can you example what you consider to being among "our most basic actions"? And similarly what you deem to be our current methods of formal logic? How would one example that such basic actions are within reach of the logic?
     
  10. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    I mean, the other way around. A logical reasoning procedure [science] may explain how basic reasoning works, but the original, unselfconscious reasoning accounts for [is the cause/driving force/progenitor of] advanced logic. Just as a modern human may describe his distant ancestors better than they could describe themselves, but he's here because of them.

    I don't quite follow that. A whole vast range of living things solved a whole vast range of problems through reasoning, long before their brains grew anywhere near the size of a human's. We do not have a monopoly on reason - all we did was extend, expand and specialize it.

    Solving man-made problems with man-made tools sounds like a good idea. (In the face of the latest climate change talks, I don't for one second believe that's going to start happening anytime soon. But it could, in theory.) But, just as mankind is a mere bump on the head of evolution, his reasoning tools are a mere frill on all the thinking that has been going on in the world.
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Is twenty years soon enough?

    You need to brush up on the "exponential function" to get a better picture of what we are dealing with.

    Professor Albert Bartlett has an excellent lecture where he observes that; "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the "Exponential Function"

    All concerned persons should take the time to familiarize themselves with this universal mathematical function which affects all phases of personal, societal, and global life.



    A great and useful example of a "logical function"
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  12. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    For what?
    My understanding of the exponential functions never has had and probably never will have any effect on the attitude on the world's political leaders.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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  14. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    So, you don't think super-sophisticated logic formulas will save us? Me neither.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I haven't seen any yet, have you?

    IMO, global (universal) logic will solve the problem for us. It won't be pretty.....

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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  16. river

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    by , Jeeves


    agreed
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The universe functions in a logical manner and all natural things have inherently logical patterns, including the brain.

    This does not mean that thinking necessarily produces reasonable results, because "garbage in --> garbage out" is also a logical (mathematical) function.

    But examples of logic in early primates (such as Lemurs) may be found in their ability to distinguish "more from less", the rudimentary ability to perform mathematical calculations.
     
  18. river

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    and therefore ?
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Whence comes logic.....

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  20. river

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    what is logical about the Brain existing in the Universe ? intelligence
     
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    No. Mathematical calculation explicitly requires quantitative analysis.

    'Being able to distinguish more from less' is a qualitative analysis - by definition, not math.
     
  22. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Because the universe functions in an orderly manner, the structures to which it gives rise are also orderly, including brains, which, evolving in an orderly manner, becomes aware of the orderly patterns in its environment and begins to make sense of the phenomena it observes; eventually including its own functioning, to which it then gives names, such as cogitation, reasoning and thinking, a branch of which further evolves to be called "logic". It's all part of the same orderly pattern, which we discern as logical.

    However, the orderly pattern of the human brain can do much more than observe, quantify and organize information: these processes also give rise to projection, prediction, anticipation and imagination. Also, it doesn't always function to optimal capability.
     
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  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Patterns. Have you looked at the electron microscope patterns of creatures and their features, and you are asking about the brain?
     

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