When/ how did you become an atheist?

I was just curious and I do agree with your assessment of fundamentalist anything. As an atheist I don't have any God problems, but the religious can still be a big pain in the ass. So whatever I can learn might just come in handy someday.

 

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I'm sorry I missed this part of your post. Why would creating hell for non-believers and sinners require God to have obligations?

 

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If you create a bad place for people to go, aren't you obligated to make sure they all have an equal chance to be saved?

 

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Since God is infallible whatever God does is going to be absolutely fair even if God acts without obligations and this infallibility comes from omnipotence and omniscience.

 

Well that's the easy explanation I was expecting.

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May I ask where you are getting your information about God and why do you believe it's the truth?

 

The idea is based on in my opinion neither on scripture, nor on heresay, nor on intuition. It is a priori to me, for this reason I believe it's the truth. Also I don't have any atheist problems either as a theist an atheist is as human as everyone else just I regard myself as human as everyone else it is what we end up acting upon that determines our place.

 

Whatever "it" does or doesn't do it's fair right? Yes I've heard this before.In that same way I am not obligated to believe or care, fair enough. :3

 

Most Western Christians are "open-minded" liberals who believe in New Agey tolerance of other belief systems (they watch Joseph Campbell specials on PBS about how all world myths are similar; they go on "zen Buddhist retreats"; or "Hatha yoga nature hikes"; or "Native American sweat lodge experiences"), and they are quite liberal as well with regard to most social agendas. They would "embrace" their children who chose to be agnostic or atheist with as much self-congratulating politically correct self-righteous satisfaction as if their son or daughter came out of the gay or lesbian closet.

You atheists must have had a peculiarly unrepresentative experience growing up. Were all of you victims of some minority fundie cult or something?

 

unfortunately I was a victim of some minority fundie cult as you so put it, minus the minority.When you address all atheists as one it shows such arrogance and contempt. Not everyone has to have a bad experience growing up to question something.By most western Christians I assume you are referring to the U.S Christians and not other western countries. I've lived in many parts of the U.S and I haven't encountered many Christians that would embrace their children after denial of God or being gay.I've lived in Mexico, El Salvador, and Guatemala.If most were liberal/open-minded I'd be truly delighted! The oh so few times I've encountered such a Christian has left good memories. <3

 

Your comments give me the distinct impression you're American. You talk about 'most Western Christians' from an American perspective and you think Western atheists must have crossed paths with some 'fundie cult' at some point. Plus you mention PBS, an American network.

'Fundie cults' are almost entirely an American phenomenon (you've got all that empty space in Utah and New Mexico for the nuts to go hide in). I've never crossed paths with such a group, we don't really have them in the UK. Many countries in Europe are predominantly secular/atheistic and don't have 'fundie cults'. The Christians here are a lot less new agey too. Yes, there's a small minority in the UK which cross Christianity and druid stuff but the largest Christian denomination on Earth, the Catholics, make up large chunks of Italy and they don't adhere to new age tolerance. The Pope is a bigoted, divisive moron who thinks atheism is a threat to society (one of the few things he and the leaders of Saudi Arabia agree about).

My experiences growing up were typical of someone living in the UK. There was a church across the road from my school, some people in my village went to it, I never did. Parents are non-theistic, most likely atheist but to be honest its never come up. Religion is central to so many Americans' lives but here in the UK its the norm for it to be a non-factor, something you forget other people occasionally do. The only time anyone in my family even considers going to a church is Christmas Eve to hear some carols and that's just my grandmother, whose slightly more theistic than anyone else in the family but even then its just a nice evening of music.

You need to realise the Western world doesn't start at your Eastern seaboard.

 

The Pope may be, but the Italian people may not be. Indeed, over 100 years ago, Italy, by popular demand, fought for and won a kind of separation of church and state, keeping the church out of society to a much higher degree than pertained before. Why would they do that if they were so highly religious?

Your observation about how UK and Europe are more secular-minded is probably true; but you're wrong if you think America is highly religious. The entire West has become secularized to a profound degree in terms of popular culture and civic laws. When I mentioned "liberal Christians" (and I was thinking in the U.S. of the National Council of Churches type -- the NCC represents thousands of churches and dozens of denominations throughout the US -- and they are very tolerant and support female ordination, gay and lesbian ordination, "Palestinian" rights, you name it) -- I forgot to mention that more preponderant phenomenon -- of the "decaffeinated Christian" -- i.e., of the Christian who doesn't really think all that much about it from day to day, hardly goes to church (maybe once for Christmas, once for Easter, and once in a blue moon for a wedding). The fundies are a tiny minority. They may seem larger because they make more noise and are more annoying. The other Christians -- the vast majority -- just recede into the wallpaper.

Also, I often read in the news about how various religious figures (ministers, theologians) and religious organizations in the UK and various parts of Europe support Muslims and oppose "Islamophobia" -- they wouldn't do that if they were the gnarly right-wing monsters with horns and a tail which atheists seem to think they are. Of course, the news I'm reading may be presented a skewed perception of the actual percentages; but I'd have to see some evidence on that. My sense is that Christianity has undergone the same erosion of Liberalism and Secularism which Western society in general has undergone, with those who remain "un-eroded" reflecting only a small minority in any context, whether religious, academic, political, cultural, etc.

 

Seriously? Ask yourself why the US Constitution involves a separation of Church and State. A highly religious society can still view such a separation as a good thing, as part of its purpose is to prevent one religion persecuting or controlling another. That's one of the core reasons for the initial colonisation of America, to escape state sanctioned religious persecution in Europe.

And the Italians are a lot more overtly religious than most other European countries.

Your wack job cults and 'ignorant and proud' overly religious Republican politicians give a bad impression. I suggest you take it up with Rick "I buggered up the budget so now will pray to an invisible sky being to save my ass" Perry of Texas.

None of those have anything to do with a reduction of faith and its limiting case, atheism. Someone can be secular and still be non-liberal, they aren't synonymous. It just happens that a lot of people's bigotry and ignorance is motivated or guided by their religious views. Questioning one usually leads to questioning the other but that isn't automatic.

Too bad the vast majority don't stand up and do something about the nuts. The fact the nuts are tolerated by the more moderate religious groups taints everyone and skews the actions taken by government. The Tea Party group is a small minority but due to it being very vocal it gets a lot of pandering from the politicians planning to run on the Republican ticket. Small special interest groups with deep pockets get given more attention than the everyday person. This is seen in the case of the general economy right now, with your government paralysed into inaction in regards to your national debt because the Republicans utterly refuse to move on anything involving tax increases on the wealthy because that's where their funding comes from.

But anyway, I'm getting into a rant about how thankful I am I don't live in the US under anyone like Rick Perry or Michelle Bachmann (dear god that woman is horrifying).

I'm an atheist and I don't think they are 'gnarly right-wing monsters with horns and a tail'. I think they are misguided people who are becoming more and more out of touch with reality. Thankfully because their influence is falling they are becoming more and more of a non-issue. Religion doesn't fact into politics here in the UK. Now compare that with the ever increasing religious and ideological polarisation which is happening in the US. People like Palin and Bachmann are extremely ignorant, they are simply not suitable to hold the office of the President and yet they are taken seriously by a worryingly large chunk of the population in large part due to their religious views. That is worrying.

In any other area of life if you asked someone "Why do you want this job?" and someone said "An invisible man told me" you'd not give them the job. You'd end the interview and stamp "REJECTED" on their form. Yet things like Rick Perry's prayer rally will actually help his approval rating.

Here in the UK I have the fortunate to be able to generally ignore religious nuts. In the US you vote them into Congress! But hey, if your electorate thinks seeing Russia across the Bering Straits gives you foreign policy experience then on your own head be it....

 

Whether you're obliged or not to believe or care is your personal contention and also not in the same way.

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Italy hardly had a problem with Protestants or other sects to worry about. No, the indications are that Italians, by and large, had secularized by the late 19th century and into the 20th. Sure, they esteemed their Pope, but they didn't want him nor his representatives running things politically and on a municipal level.

 

aaqucnaona, maybe use this thread?

 

Yeah Ok, merge it please.

 

I have always been quite proud of the UK's separation of politics from religion. But Cameron's whole "we shouldn't be afraid to call ourselves a christian nation" bollocks knocked me back a step or two. Well I suppose most of his policies are designed to revert Britain to a previous state (but that's a different debate; wrong subforum).

Is this to be the way forward for Britain? Stir up more hatred for Britain amongst Muslim extremists by such comments.

Why the hell would we want a state where bishops coerce and interfere within politics? The answer is: we wouldn't, fullstop.

THEN, I saw -today on the BBC News channel- a Church of England bishop commenting on the new benefits cap, or something political - welfare related. What the hell?

Shit; I have always known, since I feckin live here, that Britain has SO lost touch with christianity, that Cameron's direction beggars belief.

Am I getting paranoid or is Cameron trying to pull the church into the fold?

I do not want to know what Bishop wasisname thinks about ANYTHING politic. Where is this going to end? or is Cameron just doing his customary token reach-out to the demographic weaknesses in his quivering bow?

In the last census, under religion, I put "Jedi" . . .

 

well back in the day , we were taught religion in school around 1969 , I was in grade 6

I remember thinking that god was a alien in a space ship

never for got this thought

my parents never got into this thinking , or anybody else I knew , it wasn't on TV

I have know idea where I got this idea at all

but interesting nevertheless , to me anyway

 

50 days as an Atheist! No lightning/ smoten/ smitten.

My journey to Atheism-
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=111277

Why I choose Atheism -
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=111812

Certainty in Atheism -
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=111921

Meaning of life as an Atheist -
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=111931

My view on Religion -
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=111940


Joke of the Day -

"Normal logic: I have a ball, you ask me to prove it, I show you the ball, Okay.

Religious logic: I have a ball, you ask me to prove it, I ask you to prove that I don't have a ball."

 

Very well satate differenc between weak and strong atheism.