What's killing US soldiers?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Syzygys, Oct 1, 2011.

  1. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Suicide....

    "For the second year (2010) in a row, more US soldiers killed themselves (468) than died in combat (462). “If you… know the one thing that causes people to commit suicide, please let us know,” General Peter Chiarelli told the Army Times, “because we don’t know.” "
     
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  3. keith1 Guest

    I'm surprised the Army doesn't have the data to make a calculative guess of that.
    One could look at the length of active duty, length of current deployment, compared to past era war theater data, including non-U.S (such as Foreign Legion), and maybe it would become apparent that these troops need to come home, so that a peace-time period (a long overdue occurrence, I assume the data would show, compared to past periods of peace time-lengths) may commence.

    Bring the troops home.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2011
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  5. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    People who’ve survived suicide attempts have reported wanting not so much to die as to stop living, a strange dichotomy but a valid one nevertheless. If some in-between state existed, some other alternative to death, I suspect many suicidal people would take it. For the sake of all those reading this who might have been left behind by someone’s suicide, I wanted to describe how I was trained to think about the reasons people kill themselves. They’re not as intuitive as most think.

    In general, people try to kill themselves for six reasons:

    1. They’re depressed. This is without question the most common reason people commit suicide. Severe depression is always accompanied by a pervasive sense of suffering as well as the belief that escape from it is hopeless. The pain of existence often becomes too much for severely depressed people to bear. The state of depression warps their thinking, allowing ideas like “Everyone would all be better off without me” to make rational sense. They shouldn’t be blamed for falling prey to such distorted thoughts any more than a heart patient should be blamed for experiencing chest pain: it’s simply the nature of their disease.

    2. They’re psychotic. Malevolent inner voices often command self-destruction for unintelligible reasons. Psychosis is much harder to mask than depression — and arguably even more tragic. The worldwide incidence of schizophrenia is 1% and often strikes otherwise healthy, high-performing individuals, whose lives, though manageable with medication, never fulfill their original promise.

    . They’re impulsive. Often related to drugs and alcohol, some people become maudlin and impulsively attempt to end their own lives. Once sobered and calmed, these people usually feel emphatically ashamed. The remorse is usually genuine, and whether or not they’ll ever attempt suicide again is unpredictable. They may try it again the very next time they become drunk or high, or never again in their lifetime. Hospital admission is therefore not usually indicated. Substance abuse and the underlying reasons for it are generally a greater concern in these people and should be addressed as aggressively as possible.

    4. They’re crying out for help, and don’t know how else to get it. These people don’t usually want to die but do want to alert those around them that something is seriously wrong. They often don’t believe they will die, frequently choosing methods they don’t think can kill them in order to strike out at someone who’s hurt them—but are sometimes tragically misinformed. The prototypical example of this is a young teenage girl suffering genuine angst because of a relationship, either with a friend, boyfriend, or parent who swallows a bottle of Tylenol—not realizing that in high enough doses Tylenol causes irreversible liver damage.

    5. They have a philosophical desire to die. The decision to commit suicide for some is based on a reasoned decision often motivated by the presence of a painful terminal illness from which little to no hope of reprieve exists. These people aren’t depressed, psychotic, maudlin, or crying out for help. They’re trying to take control of their destiny and alleviate their own suffering, which usually can only be done in death. They often look at their choice to commit suicide as a way to shorten a dying that will happen regardless. In my personal view, if such people are evaluated by a qualified professional who can reliably exclude the other possibilities for why suicide is desired, these people should be allowed to die at their own hands.

    6. They’ve made a mistake. This is a recent, tragic phenomenon in which typically young people flirt with oxygen deprivation for the high it brings and simply go too far. The only defense against this, it seems to me, is education.

    The wounds suicide leaves in the lives of those left behind by it are often deep and long lasting. The apparent senselessness of suicide often fuels the most significant pain survivors feel. Thinking we all deal better with tragedy when we understand its underpinnings, I’ve offered the preceding paragraphs in hopes that anyone reading this who’s been left behind by a suicide might be able to more easily find a way to move on, to relinquish their guilt and anger, and find closure. Despite the abrupt way you may have been left, those don’t have to be the only two emotions you’re doomed to feel about the one who left you.

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...l635Cg&usg=AFQjCNGbGL8K3jqjuNBwNxelm77C4yMJfQ


    There are more of course but this is a very good start as to the reasons behind suicide.
     
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  7. Cifo Day destroys the night, Registered Senior Member

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    Seems like Chiarelli doesn't want to deal with reality that 34% of armed forces suicides had told others of their desire to kill themselves. The armed forces doesn't need to ask us for information, it needs to ask its own soldiers for it.

    For the modern US soldier in combat abroad, I'm thinking that many of them are realizing that real war has a flesh-and-blood reality that the video games or paintball games they grew up with don't have. That is to say, most modern Americans live farther away from the realities of life and death than previous generations, so that when they're asked to go to war, the go into it with a far more unrealistic anticipation of the outcome.

    Also, instead of sharing in the "moral glory" that WW2 soldiers did in liberating the beloved homelands (to which they were pretty much invited) of their European ancestors from evil aggressors, today they mostly go to strange dirt-poor countries, blast peasants to smithereens (the number of whom their superiors have publicly stated they don't both to keep track of), and they're not expected to feel awful about it? The lack of a recognizable enemy (no uniforms, etc) also probably takes its psychological toll. People are killed and counted as the enemy, despite the reality that some or many of them were not.

    Chiarelli's statement ultimately shows that superiors in the American armed forces haven't a clue about the people working under them -- they know their"soldiers" per se, but they don't know the actual people. This is simply another example of government/populace disparity that exists today in America.
     
  8. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I think that what has changed the most from WWII (and before) in comparison to modernity is the way we experience trauma.

    Malcolm Gladwell writes about it here.

    I think the overall trend has been (supported by mainstream psychology) to see ourselves as victims, and this victim metality has been worked into the official policies of schools, the workplace, and the military.
    I suppose originally, this victim mentality was meant as self-defense and self-enhancement, but it backfired.
     
  9. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    that statement is truly shocking, its shows that there is a compleate and utter failure in the psycological services that are provided in defence. If anything the ADF seems to have LOWER suicide rates than the general population because it firstly screens against people suffering a mental illness and secondly it has alot of psycologists on staff, and an agressive policy of treatment which is had to provide in the general population, no matter how much we (both HCP and the general population) would like it otherwise.

    If thats not the case for the USDFs then it shows a failure in at least 1 of those areas.
     
  10. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    1,194
    I would be willing to bet the reason has a lot to do with road side bombs. You get attacked, your friends die and you never even get a chance to fight back or even see the person who did it to you. The feeling of complete helplessness and having no control over your own fate, especially since the attacks are random, coupled with being a stranger in a strange land that hates you, being away from home, hostile work environment (everyone is angry so they tend to be dicks to one another as well), terrible working conditions (125 degree F heat in 60+ of extra gear), lack of sleep, poor shower/bathrooms (amazing how the little things matter) and easy access to the weapons to do it with.

    I answered the question, do I get to be a general now?
     
  11. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Personally, I believe the reason isn't complex at all - in fact it's something SO basic that it is simply overlooked by the "great minds" of today. They are looking in entirely the wrong direction. People are entirely different today with totally different mindsets (which are based on experience) than they were during the WW-II era and especially before that.

    Today's soldiers were primarily raised as mamby-pamby pampered kids. They were mostly raised in comfortable homes, pretty well protected from the harsh realities of life and bad things in general. And when they, or a friend, were killed in a video game there was always the reset button that made everything fine again. They were/are NOT prepared for the horrible and final realities of war. The vast majority of them think they are going to go "over there" and come back heroes. Just like in all the video games they play and movies they watch.

    Death and suffering were MUCH more of a reality for the ones that went off during WW-II. At that time things like TB, polio, measles and other diseases were VERY common and uncontrolled. Every boy graduating from high school had lost a classmate or neighborhood friend by the time they had finished school. And though today some still loose someone they know through vehicle accidents or drugs, it's just not as close and personal as it was back then.

    So living through an ACTUAL war - seeing buddies being blown to shreds, the guy you ate breakfast with take a bullet through his head before lunch, having to help pick up body parts off the road, etc. - takes a TREMENDOUS psychological toll on these would-be heroes. They never had to endure anything like that before and it simply destroys their pampered minds. They cannot deal with it. It eats at them and eats at them after they return home until they cannot take it any more. And they want out - COMPLETELY out.
     
  12. Pineal Banned Banned

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    The myth of a good war can do a lot to overcome both PTSD and guilt.

    In the absence of this myth....
     
  13. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    I tend to agree with it. Add that today's young generation is just generally less tough because of its spoiled upbringing, so they can't deal with adversity as well as previous generations.

    When we add the realization of a bad war, there you have it, lots of suicides...
     
  14. Pineal Banned Banned

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    Most of today's veterans come from poor backgrounds.
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Bullshit, look at the rates of PTSD that were suffered by troops from vietnarm. As for further back they wernt recognised and were just called "Cowards". PTSD wasnt even recognised after WW2 but it still existed, insted they went without treatment and became alcholics or smoked themselves to death.

     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  16. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    There is a huge difference between those wars. The Vietnam war was a real war, with battles and most (or a very large part)of the fighting force actually engaged in figthing. Iraq and Afghanistan are occupations with occasional skirmishes, bombings and shot outs.

    So you tell me in which case had/has the average soldier a much bigger chance to get PTSD???Also, do you want to dig up suicide rates from the Vietnam era? And these suicides include all suicides, not just the fighting force's...

    From 2008, and the situation got worse since:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090403333.html

    "Suicides among active-duty soldiers this year are on pace to exceed both last year's all-time record and, for the first time since the Vietnam War, the rate among the general U.S. population, Army officials said yesterday.

    Failed relationships, legal and financial troubles, and the high stress of wartime operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are the leading factors linked to the suicides, Army officials said.
    The Army's suicide rate has increased from 12.4 per 100,000 in 2003, when the Iraq war started, to 18.1 per 100,000 last year. Suicide attempts by soldiers have also increased since 2003, Stephens said.

    This year the death rate is likely to exceed that of a demographically similar segment of the U.S. population -- 19.5 per 100,000, Stephens said.According to service officials, the last time that occurred was in the late 1960s during the Vietnam War, when the United States had a draft Army that suffered from serious discipline problems."

    -------------------------

    Now ask yourself, when and where would you rather be deployed, in 1969 in Vietnam or in 2010 in Iraq???
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  17. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    From 2009:

    "The army suicide rate is now higher than that among the general American population. The rate has been calculated as 20.2 per 100,000 soldiers, compared with 19.5 per 100,000 civilians. This is a shocking statistic, as soldiers theoretically are screened for mental illnesses before enlistment and have access to counselling and health services that millions of ordinary people cannot afford.
    As there is an average of 10 failed suicide attempts for each actual loss of life, the figures suggest that more than 1,600 serving army and marine personnel tried to kill themselves last year.
    The last time it exceeded the civilian rate was in the late 1960s, at the highpoint of the US war in Vietnam.

    The suicide rate among veterans aged 20 to 24 was 22.9 per 100,000 in 2007—four times higher than non-veterans in the same age bracket. "

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/feb2009/suic-f04.shtml

    -------------------------------------

    Here is an interesting finding, it isn't the number of deployment:

    "79 percent of the soldiers who committed suicide had had only one deployment, or had not deployed at all."

    Another reason could be the lowering of the Army's standard for new recruits:

    "In addition, the report said that the pace of constant deployments in two wars had forced a lowering of recruiting and retention standards. Many new recruits were granted waivers, it said, for behavior that would have kept them out of the service in earlier years. Of 80,403 waivers granted since 2004, the report found that 47,478 were granted to people with a history of drug or alcohol abuse, misdemeanor crime or “serious misconduct,” which it defined as felony."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/us/30suicide.html

    "General Chiarelli said he did not want to typecast, “but I think it’s fair to say in some instances it would be a soldier that’s possibly married, couple of kids, lost his job, no health care insurance, possibly a single parent.” Such a soldier, General Chiarelli said, “is coming in the Army to start all over again, and we see this high rate of suicide.”"
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  18. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree completely, no one is ready is ready to watch their friend die in their arms to an IED, no one.
     
  19. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    What???? That's not even CLOSE to what I was talking about!!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  20. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    I just think your wrong is all. Again nothing can prepare you for having someone close to you getting killed by an enemy in combat, especially an enemy that you can't see or retaliate against. It doesn't matter if your a spoiled rich kid or if your from the getto, it's a fucking tragedy either way. This has been the same forever.

    The difference between the combat now and the combat in the past is the IED and not getting to fight back against an enemy in any kind of way. Rich and poor, spoiled and not fought in WW1, 2, Vietnam, and every other war I'm sure. You have to look at what is DIFFERENT to see the cause.

    Oddly enough it is more stressful to simply wait for death then it is to face it head on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  21. Cifo Day destroys the night, Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices) came into play during the American Civil War, where both sides used artillery shells and improvised them in such a way to be triggered by a downward force (as what we now call "land mines"). Such IEDs were planted, for example, along roads, at approaches to bridges, and at the thresholds of abandoned houses.
    source
     
  22. Believe Happy medium Valued Senior Member

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    You are correct sir, however, in the Civil war/vietnam(mines,pungee traps)/ww2(mines)/ww1(mines) you would eventually have a chance to fight back. In Iraq anyway most never get that chance. Not having the chance to fight back is frustrating in worst way. It doesn't have to be the exact person responsible for your buddy dying, it just has to be someone on their side, an enemy that you get to take it out on. Honestly, it would probably help to just to shoot at them, I don't think you would even have to kill one.

    The act of having your friend blown up could happen in any war and it would be just as tragic in any war. The new twist is that now you can't fight back.
     
  23. Cifo Day destroys the night, Registered Senior Member

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    Okay, apparently a difference of wars against countries where bona fide soldiers wear uniforms versus wars against civilian fighters who don't wear uniforms?
     

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