What will we replace religion with?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Magical Realist, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    "Suicide by cop" usually denotes a methodical determination to die, where Jesus purportedly made the sacrifice with some trepidation:

    Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." - Matthew 26:39​
     
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  3. Declan Lunny Registered Senior Member

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    Well you can't have it both ways, it was an intentional sacrifice, or his death was beyond his control. I contend that he could have avoided his death at the hands of the Romans (suicide by cop) had he not gone before Pilate with the forgone intention of "fulfilling prophesy".

    He chose death, we can bandy the philosophical nuances of "chose" and "fulfill prophesy", but according to the Jesus myths that the xians hold to, it was "suicide by cop". He intended to die at the hands of the Romans, intended the time and place of his death, and even said as much beforehand.

    But all this is myth. I can only go by the details embodied in the myth.
     
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  5. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    That and the mouthpieces who like to post here. Plus the televangelists. Plus all the preachers, priests, ministers, rabbis and mullahs, plus all the writers from St Augustine (and all the patriarchs that came before him) to the bishops and popes of the modern era, plus Luther, Calvin and the Anglican scholars, all of the inspired writings of Judaism and Islam, all those of Eastern Orthodoxy, and all the Anabaptists and Creation Institute mouthpieces, Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, the snake handlers and the "esoteric" mouthpieces like Alistair Crowely, Golden Dawn, Rosicrucians, Masons, the illuminati -- and of course the illiterati: Palin/Bachmann, Limbaugh/Beck, the Bushies, the Reaganites, and thousands more. Of course all of these mouthpieces are squawking that they alone are holy. That leaves it to the audience to decide which is "holier than thou". But then that process is short circuited by the imprinting on the young of one kind of squawk over another.

    Like any good musician will explain, the secret to a good mouthpiece is a proper reed, properly cut and shaped, a good ligature, and the talent and skilled control of a practiced embouchre. Hence we can tell the oboes from the duck calls. But the ducks don't know shit from shinola. That makes the overall process entirely opportunistic. What about the 100 billion people or so who never heard anything but an "unholy" mouthpiece -- whether Buddhist, Shinto, Hindu, Jain, animist, shamanist, or lost to isolation in the Americas, Africa, the polar regions or of Indea and China, Oceania and Australia, or any of the countless religions long lost to antiquity -- from voice of Marduk booming in Hammurabi's head, commanding him to write onto stone and clay tablets the same commandments later rebranded as the "exclusively holy" patent and intellectual property of Judaism (and somehow Christianity) -- to the mouthpieces of Ugarit or Egypt to those brilliant insightful mouthpieces of the Golden Ages of Greece or Rome?

    This casts God as all the more the freakish prankster, with an almost obsessive-compulsive attention to peculiar detail, as to the gauntlet his little monsters are supposed to run just to "get the message". The vast majority are listening to the wrong pitch, deluded in every respect, whereas there is one creme de la creme who happened to be in the right God forsaken mud hole at the right time, and for that reason alone they get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And for some reason he abandoned them, led them into a cruel and crushing defeat against the Romans, at which time he changed his tune and gave them a brand new theme, in the all the more elaborate ornamentation of the Jesus story. And from there it split into a thousand species each clucking, cawing and crowing in its own familiar and predictable song.

    Kind of makes us want to stick our fingers in our ears.
     
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  7. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    No, he could have both had trepidations about it, not been a coward and run, and had too much personal integrity to lie when asked.

    The trepidation is equally embodied in the "myth", so you would be cherry-picking to deny it.
     
  8. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    So ummm, you use a movie to condemn me to hell! Nice!
     
  9. Declan Lunny Registered Senior Member

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    No, cherry-picking would be to assume that "trepidation" is unique to Jesus. I submit that "trepidation" would accompany most/all examples of "suicide by cop". There in nothing worth extracting from the situation by noticing "trepidation". It's a feeling I have most of the time when I get behind the wheel of my tiny little shoebox of a car.
     
  10. Declan Lunny Registered Senior Member

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    Heaven or hell are two of the least defensible "a priori" positions in all of philosophy and metaphysics. There is more evidence for the existence of unicorns.

    Xians seem obsessed with this idea of heaven and hell, but they never tell you where they are. Where is heaven? Where is hell? What thing could they be made of? It seems the bottom line always comes down to and idle reward or an idle threat to get someone to conform to a behavior through irrational fear of the unknown.

    Using ignorance as a weapon is one of religion's most egregious shortcomings. It only reinforces ignorance and encourages false "hopes" in return for conforming without questioning.
     
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    To those talking about "holy mouthpieces", one thing to take in mind; those who have been chosen by God to be His voice are often the least among us. They will not proclaim themselves to be the "voice of God", but rather will show proof of their holy mission through their actions.

    The "false prophets" and the Great Deceiver will come proclaiming themselves to be emissaries of His great work in order to try and lead His flock astray.
     
  12. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded."--John 10:18
     
  13. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Bowling league participation can easily rival many church flocks, that isn't even an argument. Bowling leagues do a tremendous amount of charity events, they raise monies for people in need and a plethora of other volunteer work.

    The "us vs. them" that you speak of is simply the representation of competitive skills between the teams or the leagues. It's all in good fun, where the "us vs. them" group mentality in religions is the spreading of hatred and bigotry to others, that those others will burn for an eternity in hell.

    The "same general ideology"? Then, why are they separate denomination? Why are there tens of thousands of different Christian denominations? They certainly don't speak to each other, help each other out or even have anything to do with them. The Great Schism of 1054 was where the varying factions actually excommunicated themselves from each other.

    Sorry, but leagues form much larger organizations that spread right across the country. When you join a league, part of the proceeds goes towards becoming a member of those organizations allowing it's members to have fellow members everywhere.

    It is you who has no idea what they're talking about.

    Bullshit, I just showed you that is false. You didn't offer anything showing that sense of community.
     
  14. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Beautiful post! +1
     
  15. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Can you explain how we are to observe such a distinction? What proof of a holy mission? What actions? Please make sure the explanations or examples you use are not ones that are or can be accomplished with secular means?

    And, we are to distinguish these "false prophets and Great Deceivers" how exactly?
     
  16. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    It was I who brought up the phrase 'holy mouthpieces'. I believe that the Hebrew root word for prophet is precisely that- a mouthpiece. I took the liberty of adding 'holy' because we all know whose mouthpieces prophets are supposed to be. and yes, they are often from humble origins, shepherds and the like though some were priests or destined to be kings.

    Just to throw our scoffing friends a bone though: Moses was said to be the humblest man who ever lived. However it is also said that he wrote the first five books of the Old Testament which is where it is written that Moses was the humblest man who had ever lived. So how humble was he really? A question that has stumped biblical scholars for centuries. Nonetheless Moses showed proof of his office with many actions. (We call them 'miracles')

    Jesus preached humility, but He behaved certainly anything but humbly on a number of occasions, but again bolstered His mission with a parcel of miracles unparalleled before or since.

     
  17. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Um...perhaps you missed where your fate is your own doing. I am not condemning anyone to hell. I actually thought it echoed the sentiment in your "I alone am responsible for the decisions and life that I choose to lead".
     
  18. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    But, you have yet to explain to us how you know for a fact those "humble shepherds" were indeed holy mouthpieces, that God was speaking through them or they just lonely men with schizophrenia?

    Moses was so humble, He slaughtered the Canaanites because God told him to, perhaps, he too was just another schizophrenic?
     
  19. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, free will is it? You believe that I alone will choose whether I go to heaven or hell based upon your own religious beliefs, not mine.
     
  20. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    That would imply believers don't take responsibility for their decisions, which is actually quite true.
     
  21. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Both are right here, right now. IMO, it is merely an analogy of mental/spiritual states that are easier for ancient people and children to grasp. I mean, is there any doubt that a heroin addict is already in his own hell or that love can be a heaven? In this sense, it is merely a way to teach consequences and responsibility.

    And would you equally call a martyr a suicide? A martyr would, at some point, be just as aware of the impending threat and be just as unwilling to give up their principles to avoid it. IOW, was William Wallace in Braveheart (yes, I seem to be on a movie reference kick) a suicide by cop? Certainly you must think so, as he provoked the authorities, at some point knowing the likely outcome.

    That is the real message of any such martyr's sacrifice. That some ideas are more important than life. If you really wish to tarnish such noble sentiment as being a suicide you are welcomed to it.

    31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. - John 19

    Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. - Mark 15:44a​

    By all accounts, crucifixion is a long, tortuous death. Seeing that he purportedly died so quick, John 10:18 seems to indicate that he simply vacated his body. "Laying down" a body like a rag doll, is not really the same as damaging it.
     
  22. Declan Lunny Registered Senior Member

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    Provoking the authorities into killing you to prove some philosophical point is not quite the same thing as armed rebellion is it? Provoking the authorities into killing to prove a philosophical and metaphysical point is not quite the same thing as giving yourself up in payment of ransom is it?

    At what point does the bible leave off analogies, parables and allegory and change over to truth? How do you know when to take the words literally and when to interpret them as allegory? Is any part of it physical literal truth? Or all of it. The reason I ask is because you keep quoting it to me as authority, and I wish to know how "authoritative" you personally take it. Until I know where facts and allegory start and stop, I'm at the disadvantage that most sophists try place their opponent in.
     
  23. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    It is not for me to judge your fate, it is wholly your responsibility. I am a meta-ethical objectivist, who believes that one system of ethics applies universally, but also a normative utilitarian, who believes that the only prescriptive ought need only be about actions which result in harm, especially to others.

    How do you get that from what you quoted?
     

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