What to do with North Korea

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The trump administration appears to be ratcheting up the military option.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/01/politics/north-korea-military-options-trump/index.html

    Considering the trump administrations stunning incompetence and ever rising scandals, it is not unthinkable he would start (or restart) a war to try to divert attention.

    None the less North Korea is it own animal, or demonic entity. Every new US president North Korea ratchets up tensions to try to get agreement, but now its nuclear capabilities are closer then ever to actually striking the USA, would they? Well assuming we do not conform to blackmailing demands for recognition as the true Korea, as a legitimate state, peace treaty and removal of sanctions, removal of troops protecting south korea, etc, then yes maybe they would.

    I read the book "the cleanest race", that covers North Korean propaganda both internal and external to derive what their world view and goals are and it is not pretty. North Korea wants legitimacy as the worlds greatest country rule by the atheist equivalent of a god, a perfect child like race of people without sin when outside influence is removed by the grace of the one true leader.
    https://www.amazon.com/Cleanest-Race-Koreans-Themselves-Matters/dp/1935554344

    Crazy, sure, but are they so crazy they can't be reasoned with? Will a peace treaty satiate their crazy, maybe - maybe not, which is why ever US president did not do such a thing. If we agree to peace with them they are likely only to extend their demands to take over South Korea for their state ideologue is predicated on unification and with the lack of unification being their grand scapegoat for all problems. Worse agreement with North Korea would likely have to require it remains a nuclear power, which would finally prove once and for all that nukes are the means to respect, hear that Iran.

    Lets assume Trump does a limited strike to degrade their nuclear weapons capabilities, similar to his strike on Syria when he briefly got a case of the "think of the babies!", the strike would likely not do much damage, other then to North Korean pride, which they need in order to maintain their legitimacy, they likely would NEED to do some kind of reprisal attack, and only if we are lucky few would die.

    Now trump has supposedly stated by way Lindsey Graham, that if there are a few thousands death as long as they are over there, he can live with that.
    https://www.vox.com/world/2017/8/1/16075198/trump-lindsey-graham-north-korea-war

    The death toll could likely be in hundreds of thousands, oh we would win in the end, but now control a horrifically impoverished state, one of the most populated cities on earth, Seoul would be ruined by artillery, the cost economically would likely exceed the Iraq war, and likely much faster too.

    Yes making peace with North Korea would mean a legitimate nuclear power out of an insane state, would likely lead to nuclear arms of south korea, japan, as well as Iran and Saudi Arabia, and who knows who else, could lead to even greater death toll in years to come.

    My guess is trump will arrange a deal, push the issue down like line to the next president, like all the rest have, yet because trump is an incompetent pig boar, perhaps the Korean war will start up again.
     
    douwd20 likes this.
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  3. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    We could evacuate Seoul and then have our way with the North.
     
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    or
    We could just ignore North Korea and Kim Jong-un.
    I think that Kim needs an external enemy to remain in power.
    Is it in our best interests to be that enemy?
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Do you want think trump is going to ignore north korea?

    Either way eventually North Korea's nuclear arsenal will be un-ignorable. One way or another they have to get legitimacy.
     
  8. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    What makes them illegitimate?
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The fact they have a functional, prosperous, democratic, sane, nation to the south made of the same people ethnically, speak the same language, and have a claim to the whole peninsula? North Korea's existent is dependent on keeping much of its population in a state of perpetual 1984 Orwellian fear and near starvation and keeping its loyal citizens brainwashed that they are the greatest people on earth, the south will be one with them, the American pigs will be defeated. If North Korea was to make peace, open up trade, its people would quickly start asking why the fuck they support an obese leadership that lives off them like slaves, while to the south their brothers and sister have a rich democracy? "Why not unify under their government instead of ours?" that is the question the North Korean elite fears, for then they would be put against the wall.

    This is why North Korea has to keep saber rattling, a peace treaty would not satiate them unless they control the south and not the other way around.
     
  10. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Do you really buy into that crazy propaganda?
     
    sideshowbob likes this.
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    One of the issue a not often discussed is that due to NK's dire economic situation NK may decide to sell nukes to anonymous actors. It probably already has....
    So... to think of the problem in a way that is too narrow would be dangerous.
    The only solution is for NK to become a legitimate member of the security council in the UN. To allow NK to be successful in it's demonstration of it's almighty might.
    ( before it actually uses live test subjects)
    Anything else could place NK as a rogue Nuke arms dealer that has no good will towards the world that is treating it with so much hostility.
     
    sculptor likes this.
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, if your calling testimony from thousands of escaped north Koreans "propaganda".
     
  13. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    NORTH KOREA: (I) think there is no diplomatic solution. Never-the-less, we must do everything possible to save their civilization. That means trading with NK, where either they give up their threatening nuclear assets, or replace heads of state that threaten other civilizations - for - dropping all sanctions, and other economic barriers to their continued success in producing a healthy society, and further provide un-uniformed UN support to aid their medical, agricultural, and small business economics should they request it. Mexico, and Canada could as well assist in bringing aid to the North Korean people.
     
    sculptor likes this.
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Dropping all sanctions and economic barriers would lead to them growing their military and nuclear weapons capabilities until they can attack South Korean with impunity. North Korea can't exist as a open country, its population would question why they are being ruled by the totalitarian monarch north instead of the prosperous democratic south, the legitimacy and thus survival of the North Korean government is dependent on domination of the south or an external scapegoat for why that has not happened yet.

    Yes I think there is no diplomatic solution, at best we bomb them a little and they rebuild their nuclear capabilities in a few years pushing the issue down the line, they will do somekind of reprisal that will allow them to save face but not force South Korea and the USA to invade them. That is of course the best case scenario, worse case is we invade costing trillion and hundreds of thousands of lives.
     
  15. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    Are you really that blood thirsty?
    How many dead will will it take to satiate your thirst?

    Or
    Will the smell of burning flesh and the sounds of screaming children and wailing mothers just make you thirst for more?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  16. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    My solution had an important 'in exchange for' clause. Suppose they would, after such a trade, reunite with South Korea. They would retain the right to self-defense in all but nuclear capabilities. Could South Korean and North Korea unite? It would be difficult, but not impossible. Left to trust intelligent people of both countries, with or without the advise of others, it is likely that a purposefully created social system could forge a single civilization that would benefit the people of Korea, and the rest of the world.

    North Korea has the right as a nation to maintain a standing military. They might (and do) threaten those they consider to be enemies. They can rattle sabers all they want, and in a way that's a good thing. It shows their vigor. If they want to become a nation of 'Spartans' so be it. They can develop their military till the hairs fall from their heads. No problem. I want to say that there are pirates as part of most civilizations and ideologies. We do not judge those civilizations or ideas by their pirates, who are more of an internal struggle for them.

    It is history that China would support North Korea in war. The Russians as well are likely to support North Korea if for no other reason than it being a land grab issue, which (obviously) Russia is want to do. The outcome of China vs. Russia is just as intolerable from a human perspective.

    The United States military has a long tradition of defending the United States (and allies). They are involved, and we citizens of all the countries are involved, which leads me to believe, or at least hope that a viable solution could arise and be implemented short of flinging metal and other toxic substances at human beings and other living things. That's just not the way to go from any rational viewpoint.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    You think I want this? Just sitting back and letting North Korea build up nuclear weapons, sell them to Iran, South Korea and Japan will want nukes, so will the suadis, eventually there will be reckoning, and probably a whole lot more will die. I am tempted to test MAD as it would be a lot cheaper on us in the near term, but if MAD fails then millions would die in nuclear hellfire, and the long term price tag will be much more.
     
  18. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    They are dying now, of starvation, brutal prison conditions, and lack of medial treatment, to say nothing of mental health and separation from loved ones and opportunity. But you don't have to see it on TV, so you can safely ignore it.
     
  19. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    South Korean president Moon said that he wants South Korea to be “able to take the lead on matters on the Korean Peninsula.”

    “I do not see it as desirable for South Korea to take the back seat and watch discussions between the U.S. and China.

    All saber rattling aside: It seems best to follow Moon's lead on this issue.
     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-military-options-for-north-korea-1501718189

    "North Korea test-launched on Friday its first ballistic missile potentially capable of hitting America’s East Coast. It thereby proved the failure of 25 years of U.S. nonproliferation policy. A single-minded rogue state can pocket diplomatic concessions and withstand sustained economic sanctions to build deliverable nuclear weapons. It is past time for Washington to bury this ineffective “carrots and sticks” approach."
     
  21. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Only if they have millions of hostages.
     
  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    OK
    a little history
    We created this mess when we partitioned Korea after ww2.
    The Koreans are still victims of the "cold war".

    .................
    We caused this problem about 70 years ago, and ain't been able to fix it in all that time.
    Maybe
    We should recognize our limitations and stop victimizing these people with our good intentions and military might.
     
  23. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    North Korea invaded South Korea.
     

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