What should be done with rapists?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Adam, Jun 8, 2002.

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What is a suitable fate for rapists?

  1. The chop. Remove their genitalia. Put them in prison for ever.

    5 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. The chop. Remove their genitalia. Leave them in public as a visible example to society.

    8 vote(s)
    27.6%
  3. Some form of reversible castration. Put them in prison for ever.

    2 vote(s)
    6.9%
  4. Some form of reversible castration. Leave them in public as a visible example to society.

    2 vote(s)
    6.9%
  5. Death.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Exile.

    2 vote(s)
    6.9%
  7. Other.

    10 vote(s)
    34.5%
  1. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    I am pleased by it. Anger in the face of evil is a sign of virtue.

    I love you guys! Well, most of you.

    That's a pity that they choose not to control themselves, isn't it?

    See above.
     
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  3. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    Hmmm ...

    "In what cases might it be forgivable?"

    When a female 'rapes' a male???

    Take care

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  5. ndrs The Anti-Cthulhu Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    397
    Who said that?
    I believe that showing anger is never a virtue, it's a weakness.
    .
     
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  7. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    Xev ...

    "Yeah, well, look what he was wearing! He was begging for it!"

    Which brings up the question: Why does fashion, male or female, very
    often accentuate aspects considered to be 'sexually oriented'?

    Take care

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  8. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,415
    Sorry ndrs, this makes no sense whatsoever. If one person decides to stop at any time, the other must stop. Why? Follow the very simply logic here. If a friend lets you borrow his car one day, does that mean you can walk in and just take it any time you like, without asking, for ever after? If a person lets you into their house just once, does that mean you can fopr ever after simply walk in and make yourself at home without asking? Obviously not, in both cases. The same applies to our persons. Any time we physically interact with another person, we do so at their express permission, else we should not physically interact with them at all. Any time one says "stop", we must stop, otherwise it is an attack, conceptually akin to continually taking another person's car without asking, but much more serious because in the end our body is our kingdom. If you continue taking without permission, you violate that basic principle of social behaviour, you violate the logic path described herein. To me, the only valid reason for pshyical interaction against another person without their permission is in self-defence or the defence of someone threatened by that person.
     
  9. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,234
    If someone with a low intelligence is made drunk by his friends, and then they challenge him to rape someone, keep pushing him and so on, he should still be chemicly castrated at least. Only the time of the punishment can differ.

    Punishment does not mean that he can't have therapy while in jail.

    I'm sorry ndrs, but for society's sake, objective lines must be drawn. There should be no possiblity open to walk away from rape.

    I very much agree with Adam about borrowing the car. It's the same thing. It's even more: with a person you should be EXTRA careful!
     
  10. Agent@5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    558
    Rape can be kinky though!
     
  11. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,234
    I heard rape is a fantasy of some women. But there is a HUGE difference between an innocent fantasy and acting it out.

    Secondly, I don't think that this rape fantasy is about a realistic rape. It is more something that starts without full concent, but as things come along, it becomes all hot and steamy.

    I could be wrong about the second thing

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  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    i disagree with you on 2 things xev

    one: treason is bull shit, it is and i don't really care what anyone else thinks, the country is there for the PEOPLE, NOT the people there for the country

    two: murder is forgivable in some cases, eg abused people killing there abuses, rape victoms killing there atacker, the guy out of "the power of one" (think its that book), its not pritty or good but it IS forgivable

    whoever said that rape is excusable is a FUCKING DICK HEAD

    BOTH partys ALWAYS have the right to say no, i don't care if she had ur cock all the way down her throut , if she says no then you STOP
     
  13. ndrs The Anti-Cthulhu Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    397
    I wasn't justifying rape in those cases... I just said it would be forgivable...
    It's a similar case to you provocating someone and then complaining that he hit you...
    I would never do it myself, I can control myself. But I know a lot of people that can't control themselves (say 33%?), especially at young age. I am not saying that is good, I am just saying that is the way it is... Since most law has to be based on applying the majority of people.
    I agree to A4Ever though, they should be put in jail.. but not for life.
    asguard: you are right.. treason is BULLSHIT. I can't believe they still prosecute people for it after 50 years or so... (is it capital offence in US? ).
     
  14. Agent@5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    558

    Yeah i know.. and yes its true, at leats one woman finds it a fantasy...
    But yeah i always agreeed with you
     
  15. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,234
    You did? When did it start? ::

    edit: talking bout agreeing with me, not about fantasies.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2002
  16. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,495
    Ya, great idea! Then they can ALL have AIDS and if they were to escape or be freed - well they can just unleash all their frustrations or poor innocent people. Oh yeah, and give them AIDS.

    Get real

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  17. Agent@5 Registered Senior Member

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    558
    I agreed with you.. before. that other time. You know.... that time
     
  18. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,234
    yeah...that thing... euh....

    *whistles and looks away*

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    It doesn't matter. It was a joke. But I didn't want you to think I was a pervert asking about your fantasies, hence the edit and the pm.
     
  19. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,235
    Okaaaaay ...

    Since no one wanted to touch the sexually oriented fashion aspect ...

    If it could be shown that the wearing of burkahs would reduce the
    incident of rape in the general female population by, let's say 50%,
    what percentage of females do you think would wear them voluntarily?

    And, since something like the wearing of seatbelts can be government-
    ally imposed as a public safety matter, would not it apply here too?

    Oh, and by the way, I'm referring to the plain, unadorned, single basic
    color ones, not the 'in' Versace burkahs.

    Take care.
     
  20. Agent@5 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    558
    heheh ahh man, ive learnt its too easy to judge people like that... its cool ... i no your a perveted 80 yr old man in fish nets

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    i mean not that theres anythign worng with that!
     
  21. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,234
  22. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    there is NOTHING worse than rape

    murder is NOTHING in comparison

    i am thinking we should bring back the spanish inquisition, they were VERY talented from what i hear
     
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,974
    A diverse problem

    Uniform solutions pretend that the problem is uniform.

    In my high school, 80% of the males would have been castrated.

    In the US, in the 1990s, there was a slogan that said, "1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime: Your mother, your daughter, your wife, or your sister--which would you like it to be?"

    I think castration and other such punishments will, actually, foster the rape culture. Given that the majority of rapes are by acquaintances and not strangers, it is already observable that women are less inclined to file charges against acquaintances. This seems to stem from human sympathy; a mistake is made, and nothing justifies a situation, but in the face of castration or execution (we did at one time execute sex offenders in this country) the rape survivor may be less inclined to press charges because the offender is someone they know and fostering that person's death or castration still bugs their conscience. Hell, I've watched "rapes" be later dismissed by women because they don't want the guy to spend his life in jail. It's a bad situation

    Virtually everyone I know has performed some act in their lives which could, by extension of existing legal nitpicking, be qualified as a sex offense. Most of these people are not rapists. One of my associates had an underage girlfriend. She's now of age, and they're still together, and seem a healthier couple than most, so I don't think she could imagine castrating him for statutory rape.

    As I said, uniform solutions pretend the problem is uniform.

    Observably, there are a number of issues a rape survivor has to deal with. An incomplete list:

    Medical: Is the rape survivor pregnant, or newly-infected with a social disease? Either of these anxieties are crushing.
    Security: Someone has just done this; how to not fear it unreasonably in the future is a complex, taxing problem.
    • Social: There is a bizarre stigma that goes along with being a rape survivor. This is the hardest thing to figure out. When your own family starts tiptoeing and stressing about the incident, the rape survivor usually feels some angst arising from a sense of responsibility.

    As I said, an incomplete list. The social is part of the problem.

    We demonize sexuality in Western culture, an effect of Christianity in general, and Puritanism in the United States. Issues pertaining to sexuality often add unnecessary burdens to the rape survivor. But they also add unnecessary burdens to the rapist.

    Seriously: Anyone here like looking up a woman's skirt? What's your f--king problem? Or, to the other hand, why is it such a big deal?

    I have to admit, receiving an apology from a woman for being such a slut--for not being a virgin when we were first together--was shocking; how did someone come to conclude themselves a slut for being raped?

    But look at how we elevate sexual intercourse in society. Americans, at least, have serious issues that cause us to obsess about sex.

    When we stop stigmatizing sexuality, the number of rapes will decrease. A crime-and-punishment solution will not be effective in the face of the current sexual obsession. Has anyone ever known a woman who "liked to be raped"? It's a sticky classification, but I've known one or two. They like to be reckless, like to be taken when they're not in charge of the situation. It is, in fact, a deep psychosis that I have learned I am utterly unable to crack. But it goes something like this: The woman, feeling her urges, is psychologically entrenched against sexuality by social and educational standards. To conduct herself in an irresponsible manner (A) allows sexual intercourse, (B) allows the tortured conscience, and (C) creates a sense of righteousness--as long as it's out of her control, she need not feel it's wrong. She'll be hurt, abused, degraded, and generally wrecked by such conduct, but at that point you can literally watch the reality of human impulse in a knock-down, drag-out catfight with the reality of the human conscience.

    This does nothing to justify the rapist. "She wants it," does not suffice as an excuse.

    But it does give us some insight as to how deeply sexuality affects people.

    On the side of the rapists, we usually put cultural factors in the spotlight. Pornography causes rape, apparently--or so was the argument. I mean, I recall people in the US saying Hustler was responsible for Ted Bundy's acts. In a political argument, I point back to Eden. That part never made sense to me, even as a kid. With nobody to tell them their nakedness was wrong, why did they feel that way? Presumptuous wisdom, but we're not through coping with it.

    I recall a bit from Clive Barker's Great and Secret Show in which a character with a lifetime habit of voyeurism had come to appreciate breasts for their diversity, while the vagina seemed to him quite mundane. I had a flash of sympathy the first time I read it. Seriously, I had a girlfriend who used to climb naked into bed and wait for me. We had the most boring sex imaginable. I personally like a taste of the "forbidden", no matter how mundane. That is, lingerie, clothing, whatever. It helps the psychology of recreational sex to engage your imagination a little--what will I find when I unwrap the present?

    Were sex merely a naturalistic function, such a condition wouldn't exist. That is, I learned very early on that there was something to peeking up girls' skirts and so forth, and as I blossomed into sexuality (hey, can I get any more McKuen on you?) that aspect of the forbidden transformed into a preference of casual sex.

    When I look around at the ideas we pass on to children, and try to make even a basic comparison of magnitude when considering how those prepubescent notions of sexuality (e.g. "the forbidden") affect people, I am sympathetic to the conflict which raises a rapist. That he cannot figure out propriety amid a confusing jumble of desire, standard, action, and the existence of other people does not excuse the act of rape. But it does point out an area where our stigmatization of sexuality is biting us in the ass.

    I actually wonder if gang rape isn't the result of severely repressed homosexuality. After all, it's a group of men having a common experience through their penises. I mean, the only admitted gang rapist I ever knew was also in a street gang at one point. They were constantly grabbing and slapping and punching after each other--an almost maniacal need for physical contact 'twixt them. But since they're not into buggery, as such, it might be that gang rape is the only way they can figure to share a sexual experience. It's one possibility.

    Furthermore, date rape can be said to be about sex, but more severe rapes are generally said to be about other issues manifesting themselves through sex. To abduct a woman and spend that much effort removing her from place to place seems to fit with the sociological assertion that such rapes are about authority, and not orgasms. The sexuality is merely the most potent manifestation of the need for authority.

    And, of course, beyond that are the chemically-determined rapists. Castration may be the only solution available, though given the drugs available to humans these days, I don't see why we couldn't make an anti-Viagra, similar to Anabuse. Imagine getting vomitously ill every time you got horny. If the chemical problem results from a structural issue in the brain, there's not much that can be done. But otherwise, it might be possible to train sex offenders through Pavlovian methods.

    But the charging rhinoceri have arrived, so it's time for me to step off my soapbox.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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