What must the democrats do to win?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by MattAlland, Dec 9, 2004.

  1. MattAlland Registered Member

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    I think the democrats are going to have to make the case how they've been the driving force behind America's success in the last century. Without the safety nets and moral advances made by democrats we never would have grown to where we are today.

    In its deepest sense conservatism is a losing battle. This belief that you can somehow stop the tides of change is unrealistic, and in the end only results in more suffering than happiness. To be successful as a human race we must embrace change, and do so with optimism.

    And in regards to the corruption of the Bush administration. There is no democratic or republican way to fight a war. This is just good old fashioned corrupton and most republicans are too stubborn/scared to admit it.
     
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  3. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    The first problem that the Democrats have is that the corporate financiers of both the Democratic and the Republican party are more threatened by the ideologies of the democratic base constituency than they are threatened by the ideologies of the Republican base. The politically active corporations want to be able to pollute, sell unsafe merchandise, have employees work for low wages in unsafe working conditions, Invest and produce anywhere on the globe, be allowed to cheat the taxpayers when selling products and services to the government, be protected from free market competition and allowed to acquire monopoly status and profit from monopoly status, limit the peoples ability to use government or media or lawsuits to restrain bad corporate behavior, and many corporations want continued government subsidies. For the Democratic base stopping bad corporate behavior is a fairly high priority. The Republican's have two bases, the cultural right and neo-libertarian/small government/tax rebels. For the Republican bases resisting corporate bad behavior is not as much of a priority. The Democratic politicians get used to being empty suits who lack the courage to lead the people in political fights because the need to not offend either their corporate financial base or their voting base disqualifies any straight talking fighters from being successful in Democratic politics.

    The second problem that the Democrats have is that there is no left version of Fox news and Right wing talk radio. The mainstream corporate media is loyal to the Wall Street mindset first and trying to appear politically neutral second. It is true that the cultural right is looked down upon by the mainstream media but on economic issues the corporate media is anti-populist and anti-Democratic base.


    The core themes of the Democratic base are "more kindness" and "more fairness". The core theme for the cultural right republican base is discipline. The core theme for the neo-libertarian tax rebel republican base is economic freedom. Both Republican bases feel victimized by intrusive Democratic attempts to enforce kindness. For the cultural right the letting gays out of the closet is an excess of kindness. For both the cultural right and tax rebels letting generations of people raise their out of wedlock children on welfare payments extorted from taxpayers is an excess of kindness. Discipline is important and the Republican base has some legitimate grievances against those who would sacrifice discipline in the name of kindness or fairness. The Republican base argues that fairness is on their side and that welfare and affirmative action are unfair and unkind to them.

    Anybody that has ever tried to run a small business or do anything out of the ordinary knows how frustrating big government with it's rules and regulations is. The frustration of dealing with government regulations is so great that anybody who has been through it could almost sympathize with a huge corporations desire to be free to dump it's toxic waste in the river.

    It's a clever trick that the Republicans have the got most of the country blaming the democrats for taxes and regulations. At least on the Tax / spending side if you don't count Social Security and Medicare then the vast majority of the spending is for programs the Republicans like more than the Democrats do. If you call the interest on the debt Republican spending because they are the ones that say deficits don't matter then even more of the spending is Republican spending. When high income Republicans whine that the wealthy are paying more than their fair share of taxes they always talk about Federal income taxes while leaving out payroll taxes so when they talk about spending they should leave out Social Security and Medicare but they never do. Sales taxes, gas taxes, and property taxes are regressive. Landlords pay the property tax but they pass the cost on to their tenants.

    Another clever Republican trick has been to convince America that they represent patriotism, moral values, Christianity, and masculinity/inner strength, and the Democrats represent anti-Americanism, degeneracy, misguided oppressive secularism, and cowardly weakness.

    To win the Democrats must shatter the negative images that the Republicans have created about them.
    Contrary to the republican whines the media currently has an anti-Liberal bias so it will be very difficult for the democrats to shatter the negative images about them. The Democrats will need to either have friends like George Soros buy them their own media or the Democrats will need to count on disasters making people turn against the Republicans. The good thing about the Republicans controlling the government is that they will be blamed when they fail.

    When you want to shatter a conventional wisdom myth first you must create the debate by saying the opposite of the myth even if the truth is in-between the two opposites. So accuse the Republicans of being unpatriotic, immoral, unchristian and cowardly weaklings and show that Democratic values are more patriotic more moral, more Christian, and stronger. The easiest case to make in that the Democrats are more Christian because Christ's words support kindness and oppose hate. Oklahoma has the highest divorce rate and Massachusetts has the lowest divorcé rate. I don't think Republicans are morally superior to Democrats. Democrats need to take control of the language of the debate. Democrats must develop their catchy phrases and talking points on each of these issues and in a coordinated effort hammer the Republicans with them relentlessly for eight years without any concern for the short term effect on elections. Newt Gingrich would understand what I am talking about because this is a variation on what he did for the Republicans. Unfortunately Democratic politicians can not be coordinated, and they are afraid of offending their own shadows.

    Disasters will come and Republican leadership will only make the disasters worse so the democrats will have their chance again.
     
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Democrats might have to do nothing to win. They won in 2000. The election results are not official until January, and Ohio is still in the process of a recount.
     
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  7. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    An excellent and comprehensive post, nirakar. Yes, the Republicans’ "tricks" and marketing have been brilliant. The Republicans are run like a corporation whereas the Democrats are more loosely organized. The Democrats should organize more like the Republicans and match their discipline. That is hard for them to do because the Democrats represent so many different issues whereas the Republicans focus on profit.

    The Democrats should end their support of affirmative action, which is discriminatory. Welfare is not such an issue now thanks to Clinton who largely ended it. The Democrats could advertise that a lot better: almost a decade later a lot of people erroneously think the Democrats support liberally-applied welfare.

    The Democrats would do very well to retreat on the abortion issue, digging in only where the mother’s health is in jeopardy or where the baby is likely to have a very low quality of life (like bedridden). Abortion is anathema to a large percentage of Republicans; many will vote Republican based mainly on this issue. I think it is ridiculous that the law allows abortion to be used as a form of birth control. Passive forms of birth control, especially when used in combination, are extremely effective. I think the sentiment that "it’s her body therefore her choice" is ridiculous. Nobody disputes that when the kid is born it’s not her choice; just because it’s attached to her should not make a difference. Democrats could gain a lot of votes by caring more for the unborn. The old problem of backroom abortion can be mitigated with better supporting laws and education. Women are no longer castigated for having children out of wedlock.

    Once the Democrats gain the power to do so:

    The Democrats should fight hard for a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution. They are already the more fiscally responsible party. This would only be codifying what they already do. Supporting such amendment would devalue the “tax and spend” mis-label.

    The Democrats should fight hard for an amendment to the Constitution that allows voters of every election to prioritize their choices for candidates of each office, like the Australians do. This would stop the left from being hurt by a split among multiple liberal parties.
     
  8. Undecided Banned Banned

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    I don't think the Democrats cannot do much quite honestly; the GOP was in this situation after the disaster that was Hoover and they didn’t get out after close to 50 years. The Democrats do not speak to the majority of Americans that is true, most Americans now are as fake as fake can be. It was the height of irony that the GOP paid for spots on Will and Grace, because many Republican women watched the show. The utter contempt the GOP seems to have for its own supposed "morality" is evidence of the parties utter contempt for the American people, and the American people eat up it like a beat up wife. The American public (at least half) have pretty much given up on rationality, reason, and education, there are some people in the US who will honestly benefit from the Bush administration, primarily being the rich upper classes, as I wrote in my Fall term paper in Political science about the current sad state of the American electorate:

    Have fun genius'...
     
  9. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks Zanket

    I like the Idea. Perhaps it could be done at a state level first to overcome the resistance to change.
     
  10. nbachris2788 Registered Senior Member

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    I think it's a fallacy to think that the Democrats need to be as extreme and hardline as the Republicans. In desperate situations, the Greens and disillusioned Democrats will band together. What really kills the Democrats are those idiot undecideds who believe morality is purely about dicks and pussies. And yet, being centrist doesn't really convince those people either, and just turns off the energetic left-wing supporters.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,374
    I was just reading a conservative bit in another topic, and apparently in order to be popular enough to win, Democrats need to reject the U.S. Constitution, hold that truth is un-American, and celebrate the moral and utilitarian supremacy of dishonesty.

    In other words, Democrats should wrap themselves in bigotry and superstition, and that will win them votes.

    Apparently, Dems need to accommodate the rejection of the U.S. Constitution so central to the needs of "middle America".

    As with so many things American, the sentiment seems to be that the Democrats ought to simply hop on the trolley or shut up. Of course, that's what happens when people elevate superstition as the basis for action.

    After all, "middle America" doesn't like to be told it's wrong, even when it is. Kind of like a child, in a way. But among adults, we call that being a greedy whore. It's not so cute once the "child" is old enough to know better.
     
  12. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    3,777
    Damn, Schwarzenegger saw my post here!

     
  13. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    Democrats do not have a message problem. We get the message. That's the problem.
    Democrats have more in common with the French and Europeans than they do with Americans. As long as Democrats keep attacking great institution like the Boy Scouts, and Christianity they will keep losing. American's have a great love for tradition and resent anyone who attacks them. We do not like to see godless groups like the ACLU telling us how to worship God. We want to raise our families without the fear of our children being taught immoral behavior. That is the true America and Democrats are in direct opposition to everything we hold dear.
     
  14. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    As long as 51% of Americans feel the way that Brutus does about Democrats, Democrats will keep losing.

    So Brutus, what can Democrats do to alleviate your fears that they would have your children taught immoral behavior. The Democrats can't back off much more on their commitment to kindness and fairness than they already have to get corporate donations because if they back further away from kindness and fairness then their own base won't show up at the polls. Would refusing to advocate for fairness for gays and refusing to advocate for a women being allowed to get abortions and refusing to interfere with public schools that want to teach the bible as truth in class be enough to satisfy you?

    What else do you need?

    Would Fox, Limbaugh and Conservative talk radio ever stop telling you that Democrats are degenerate defenders of immorality or would they require that the Democrats renounce the right to interfere with the even the sleaziest of fat cats sleaziest plans to rip off the average Americans before they would ease up on the Democrats? My fear is that you will be conned into exaggerating the Democrats immorality and be conned into voting against your own self interests. I know it's disrespectful and rude and won't win anybody over to my side to accuse a huge group of voters of being gullible suckers but that is my fear. Other than buying radio stations, what could I do to bring people like you back into a anti-Republican coalition?
     
  15. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    You're confusing "Americans" with "a slight majority of Americans". Democrats are most of the rest of the Americans.
     
  16. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Democrats have more in common with the French and Europeans than they do with Americans.

    As Zanket alluded to, only your isolated form of America.

    As long as Democrats keep attacking great institution like the Boy Scouts, and Christianity they will keep losing.

    They attacked Christianity?

    American's have a great love for tradition and resent anyone who attacks them.

    American traditions? You mean slavery, genocide, imperialism, and exploitation of the land? Those were American traditions, Americans resent change because they have a short attention span, like the civil rights movement give it 30 years and the American people will understand how vile the “tradition” was.

    We want to raise our families without the fear of our children being taught immoral behavior. That is the true America and Democrats are in direct opposition to everything we hold dear.

    Like Universal healthcare, or social safety net not being sacrificed for the bloated military-industrial complex, avoiding the mass inequality of wealth, not invading other nations for no reason and letting your children die in immoral wars, and keeping civil liberties, not putting prejudice into the constitution…yes whatever nonsense you speak about morals…you don’t have a modicum of an idea what morality is.
     
  17. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    For Democrats to win they are going to have to take back the party from the extreme left. Like it or not Michael Moore is the face of the Democrat party. Democrats need to get some new ideas rather than rely on the old tired socialist ideology that has been their mainstay for the last 40 years. Democrats need to realize it is not the 60's anymore. The Vietnam War is over. Pessimism and self-loathing will never win anything. Democrats need to feel good about America again. See the good and not dwell on the bad. To love your country and feel good about its accomplishments is not a vice. Know that the 51% who voted for Bush are not a bunch of brain dead hicks. Disrespecting your opponent will not win any converts, or elections.
     
  18. top mosker Ariloulaleelay Registered Senior Member

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  19. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Democrats need to get some new ideas rather than rely on the old tired socialist ideology that has been their mainstay for the last 40 years.

    Socialist? Do you even know what Socialism is? I suspect you don’t so stop talking MORE nonsense. Did you ever hear about Keynesian? After Clinton how can you even say that the Democrats are a “socialist” party? More ignorance and rabid ranting from the idiotic right.

    Democrats need to feel good about America again.

    What is there to feel good about? Rising poverty, rising debt load, rising trade deficit, a losing “war on terror”, thousands of American dead in Iraq for a war that wasn’t supposed to happen, rising pollutants, a degradation of civil liberties in the US…tell me what is to be so joyous about?

    See the good and not dwell on the bad. To love your country and feel good about its accomplishments is not a vice. Know that the 51% who voted for Bush are not a bunch of brain dead hicks. Disrespecting your opponent will not win any converts, or elections.

    They sure as hell seem to be a bunch of idiots because they voted on “values” not Iraq, not the economy. If you only dwell on the good you will never have a successful country, the government’s job is to fix the bad and let the people deal with the good. So again what’s so good about this American of which you speak?
     
  20. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    I think that Democrats and Republicans both cherish the freedoms and prosperity that make America great. Both Republicans and Democrats can appreciate America's great contributions of technology, entertainment, and idealism to the global human culture. Which American accomplishments are you feeling that Republicans appreciate but Democrats don't appreciate?

    Do Republicans need to feel good about their country again also including gays, atheists, gangster rappers, and unwed mothers?

    It would be so much more pleasant to think only nice things about the presidential administration but it seems that a variation on Domino Theory survived the Vietnam war and outlasted the cold war and is now the driving force behind the Neocon decision to occupy Iraq. I believe that the Neocons learned the wrong lessons from Vietnam. You can read their thinking in the PNAC documents. Is thinking that the American foreign policy has been for the last fifty years and continues to be stupid, ineffective, perverted by special interests, and cruel the same as being pessimistic and self-loathing?

    When traditional people see the Democrats and the Coastal big city people as undermining America's moral values are the traditional people being pessimistic, self-loathing and unpatriotic for not loving America? If America's leaders want to allow the corporate world to use soft pornography to sell cars and other products would it be self-loathing and unpatriotic to oppose the proliferation of pornography? Could you be having a double standard where being pessimistic about some aspects of America is good and being pessimistic about other aspects of America is bad? Preaching pessimism and hating fellow Americans seems to work well for the Republican Party.

    Why is criticizing foreign policy off limits? Is it because we don't want to devalue the sacrifice that our soldiers make? Heroic sacrifice for America in a stupid war is still heroic sacrifice for America even if the stupid war part kind of ruins the story. Is it that when it's "us verses them" we are not allowed to be disunited because disunity weakens us? If the disunity can stop us from making a mistake then isn't it better that we be disunited? So why is it Ok to criticize our domestic policy but it is self-loathing if we criticize our foreign policy?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2004
  21. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    3,777
    Wow, the DNC saw my post above!

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    Giving up the fight for some women's rights adds rights to the unborn. Why should there be such a huge difference between the rights of a fetus and the rights of a newborn?

    I think Democrats are being hypocritical on abortion. They really want it freely available because it's convenient, not because "it's her body" or because the fetus isn't viable. By softening the hard line on abortion the Democrats will likely add more supporters than they lose on the extreme left. Letting children be born in certain cases seems a small price to thwart the Republican's destruction of the world. The woman does not have to keep the child. Nor in most cases will the child be unwanted.
     
  22. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    I don't see how it can hurt to disrespect people for doing disrespectful and downright mean things to others, like Republicans do. It makes things worse to pretend everything is dandy.
     
  23. Brutus1964 We are not alone! Registered Senior Member

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    After reading the responses to my post it is obvious that Democrats are beyond help. Please, please keep doing exactly what you are doing and we Republicans can sleep easier knowing that the GOP will be in power for many more years to come.
     

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