What makes the holocaust such a big deal?

Discussion in 'History' started by Roman, Apr 3, 2008.

  1. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Ok, but I was speaking of the benefits of having nuked Japan. I wasn't positing a universe with no Manhattan project, just one where we hadn't nuked the Japs. Once nukes had been built, they were going to be used. Much better that it was in the limited attack at the end of WW2. Don't forget, we pretty much hit them with our entire nuclear arsenal. Would we have done the same in 1962? Well, here is a statement of US policy at the time:
    It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union. [1]
    So would it have been better for the first use of nuclear weapons to be at a time when the total world arsenal consisted of 2 bombs, or at a time (1962) when there were over 30 thousand?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
     
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    fair call but that doesnt change wether it is a war crime. What would be worse, if i wiped out the population of the US now or if i went back in a time machine and wiped them all out when there was only a few thousand?

    Nither, both would be genocide and ethically wrong
     
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  5. Roman Banned Banned

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    Oh come on. The atomics dropped on Japan weren't that big or bad or different, compared to all the other bombing that took place for the last, what, 4 years of the war? They just all happened at once.

    The Brits targeted civilians. Why doesn't anyone ever complain about that? The Japs dropped plague bombs on Chinese civilians. No one bitches about that.

    And an invasion would have been even more devastating and costly to Japan. We would have had to destroy every single one of their cities in grueling building to building battles as our fleets mercilessly pounded everything with thousands of tons of bombs. You know, like what happened in Europe.


    Err, excuse me. You guys should discuss your hypothetical holocaust fantasies in a different thread. This is not the alternate history holocaust thread. This is to examine real history, not bad analogies. Sorry!
     
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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    firstly the japs hadnt signed the geneva convention so unlike the germans they wernt bound to treat even captured solders as anything more than target practice

    Secondly i DO think the brits were just as guilty because of the bombing of drasnia and others your right

    but most importantly the A bomb didnt just kill, 3 or more generations on people were suffering lukima and birth defects DIRECTLY ATRIBUTABLE TO THE A-BOMB

    Im ASSUMING they didnt know that would happen before they droped them because if they did they were the lowest creatures on earth but even if they didnt the mass slaughter of civilans is a war crime no different from what the germans did
     
  8. Roman Banned Banned

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    Oh, you're right. If you don't sign the Geneva conventions, then we shouldn't bother considering their attrocities. Silly me. That is such a terrific argument. If there's no law against killing innocents in really horrible ways, it's ok!

    But mass slaughters of civilians was how all of both wars were fought. It just took more bombs for the Allies in Europe to accomplish what the Americans did in Japan with two. And radiation was a relative unknown for awhile.

    Did you know the first glow in the dark watches (Radex or something?) were painted with radioactive radium? The glow was actually nuclear decay. The women who painted the hands on the watches would put the stuff in their teeth for cool effects in the dark. Real cheshire cat shit. Can't remember where I read that.
     
  9. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    do you really think i dont dislike what the japanise did not only to alied solders but AUSTRALIAN solders and the civilans of koria and china?

    HELL no i dispise the way WW2 was fought on BOTH sides and thats the whole point. The alies are held up as heros who saved the world and they did TO AN EXSTENT. However there own tactics were as atrocious as those the germans were proscuted for BY THE ALIES.

    What is the point of critising the germans or the japanise? They have been procicuted for there crimes but the crimes of the alies were ignored

    And for a lighter note, yes i actually DID know that SOME glow in the dark watches were painted with radiactive material. Not all however because the new ones need to "charge up" under normal light before they glow and thats definitly NOT the way radioactive material behaves

    I do know what your getting at and i agree with you, the coniquences of an action which cant be predicted are not a crime which is why i dont blame the US for my grandfathers death. I do find the way they treated solders involved in the A-bomb projects to be discusting but i know thats from a CURRENT perspective and although i agree with seeking compensation from the british goverment over it i dont belive people should be jailed for it. The delibrate bombing of civilans is another matter intirly and people SHOULD have been jailed over it
     
  10. retaxis Registered Member

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    Because there are holocaust survivors
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    Yes.

    And?

    There are also survivors of the Rwandan genocide. As well as the genocide in Cambodia as another example. There were most probably survivors of the Armenian genocide, as well as Nan King.

    Are they somehow less important or less significant?
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Congratulations! You located them. Now sod off and think about them. There we are.

    Really? And here you've been preaching about how we haven't learned anything. Gendanken pipes up with "The Jew". Guess we haven't.


    Actually, if you read my posts, you'll find that isn't the way it went down, whiny. I've illustrated why I thought the Holocaust might be a more significant message given the location and society it occurred in. Despite those seeming inhibitions, it happened anyway, which spidergoat also pointed to. You may have other reasons for thinking other ones more significant, and you are entitled to them. But I don't attach more or less moral importance to the deaths themselves. Understand now?

    Yes, very big hefty balls. You might consult the page on wiki about it and notice that there actually is some debate about whether it's a "geno"cide, and then sit back and actually think about the issue a little bit.

    Of course! You got me dead to rights, Marshall. Except for the part where you're completely wrong. Speaking of hysterical, are you all right over there? Maybe you should calm yourself down a bit.

    Actually, whether or not you're a liar (which has yet to be seen), you have a different problem. You allude to it here:

    So why should I?

    BTW, I'm not Jewish, but thankyou for the compliment all the same.

    Geoff
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    Bite me, you bucked tooth sporran.

    I see you've gotten out of the wrong side of the bed. Calm down Geoff. You're getting hysterical.

    You still don't get it, do you?

    *Sigh*
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    Actually, it's you that don't. Reflect. Return.
     
  15. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    So if you're fighting a war and the enemy starts bombing your cities, you'll stand by and not retaliate? Bullshit! The Nazi's were evil bastards bent on world conquest and the extermination of "lesser"races. The Japs attacked us first and, while not as bad as the Nazis, were no angels. As I said before, the nukes certainly saved American lives and almost certainly saved Japanese lives.

    We were fighting for our lives in WW2 and, in that situation, absolutely anything goes. You can sit here with the benefit of hindsight and say we shouldn't have done this or that as though the outcome were certain and fighting with one hand tied behind our backs would have made no difference.

    But it's not true. It was really quite a feat for us to beat the Japs after they had pretty much destroyed our entire fleet while simultaneously fighting the Nazis in Europe. The war was consuming 90% of the US federal budget by the end!

    Our soldiers now complain of fatigue and being over-taxed by 15 month deployments to Iraq/Afganistan. Well, there was no "tour of duty" in WW2. You were there to the end.

    It was an all out fight to the death and we won. Self flagellation now is worthless and dishonors the incredible sacrifices made by our soldiers.
     
  16. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    um a few escorts and aging battleships ( and battleships being obselete at this point.) hardly is almost are entire fleet
     
  17. Vinyard Banned Banned

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    The holocaust wasnt that awful
     
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Mad, the reason you were atacked was that you provoked. Now the english and eroup would thank you for this but Australia shouldnt. Without pearl harbor and more importantly the actions of the US BEFORE pearl harbor australia would probably never have been directly atacked.

    I always found it facinating that Australia volenteered to enter the war in eroup because our alie was being atacked and the US chose the cowards route. Yes i realise that indervidually your pilots chose to help england and that your president wanted to get into the war (which is why he provoked the japanise) but your people were cowards who were happy to sit back and make money off BOTH sides rather than fight.

    Im sorry mad but dont lecture me on war time ethics when the US never came out of the war smelling like roses. YES they "saved the world" if you ignore hitlers stupidity of atacking russia in the middle of winter or the russian and british envolvment in the war. However the manner of entry taints what the US PEOPLE deserve in regonition.

    That being said i will never speak badly of the US solders in the war although i will pass on what my grandfather said about the australians out fighting in asia while the americans were flirting with the australian women in comfert in australia.
     
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Romey:

    You missed the point, so let me spell it out for you: you have to be smart, not stupid, to understand nuclear physics and engineering.

    See?
     

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