What makes the holocaust such a big deal?

Discussion in 'History' started by Roman, Apr 3, 2008.

  1. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Read the Koran, it tells you how to force submission through violence.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I've read the Quran, must have missed that part.

    Chapter and verse, please?
     
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Q 9:29. "Feel themselves oppressed"
     
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  7. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Chap 9:

    ...Give to those who misbelieve glad tidings of grievous woe!--Except to those of the idolaters with whom ye have made a league, and who then have not failed you at all, and have not backed up any one against you. Fulfil for them then your covenant until the time agreed upon with them; verily, God loves those who fear.

    [5] But when the sacred months are passed away, kill the idolaters wherever ye may find them; and take them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in every place of observation; but if they repent, and are steadfast in prayer, and give alms, then let them go their way; verily, God is forgiving and merciful.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    What verse is that?
     
  9. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    5. It's 5.
     
  10. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Also Ch. 9 Vs. 14:

    14 Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.

    And 23:

    23 O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers.

    (You can't have friends who are disbelievers)

    And 29:

    29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

    And 123 (same chapter):

    O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    22,712
    Please do. I have several books on the matter if you wish to go a bit more in depth in this subject matter.

    That's the thing Geoff, they actually did not need lots of soldiers. But yes, they actively blocked the UN from acting. I'd suggest you also read up on Colin Keating's comments on the matter. Keating was the NZ Ambassador to the UN and President of the SC in April 1994. It needs to be noted that the US was not the only country doing all it can to block any resolutions in regards to Rwanda. France and many other countries were also quite vocal in refusing to do anything about it.

    I'd suggest you read 'Eyewitness to a Genocide: The United Nations and Rwanda' by Michael Barnett. As well as 'A Problem from Hell: America and the Age of Genocide' by Samantha Power.

    It's drool. How DARE you comment on my bodily dysfunctions in such a fashion!

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    Do you think the American public would have disapproved of sending a few thousand soldiers to prevent the mass slaughter of the Tutsi's? I suspect the majority of Americans were most probably using the word "genocide" before their own Government even dared to utter the words publicly.

    I'm not here to "earn points" Geoff. Actually, who exactly does one "earn points" with here anyway?

    You'll excuse me if I do not rely on your perception of what the public was thinking or feeling, seeing that you were (and probably are) still unsure whether it was a genocide or not.

    My assessment of shock and awe? Ah, I see the backpedaling is starting already.

    You're the one who was jumping around, wringing your hands with 'but was it a genocide?'.. Who knows what your position is on this issue.

    I suspect public support would have continued if it had not become blatantly obvious that there were indeed no WMD's. If US soldiers did not torture and kill prisoners in Abu Grahib. Shall I continue? Or do you see where I am going with this now?

    What old vein? I tend to be sarcastic sometimes... well ok.. most times when faced with people who feel the need to deny the obvious for whatever reason. My own country is just as much at fault for not ignoring the UN and simply going in, as is every other country who wanted to help (Canada, New Zealand to name a couple).

    I'd suggest you actually read up on the issue of Rwanda and how many States did everything they could to do, well, nothing. And then I'd suggest you read up on what they actually did and how the majority ended up protecting the murderers, some even giving them sanctuary. After you've done that, get back to me and I promise you, I will be a little less sarcastic.

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  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds like a translation of the incident between the unbelievers who broke the peace treaty with Mohammed and insisted on attacking them. Mohammed was to fight them in self defense and not trust them again as wali (not friends but protectors) as they had shown themselves to be untrustworthy. Howvever if they made any indication that they did not want to fight he was to immediately make peace.

    Sounds reasonable to me. And its referring to a specific instance of history,

    Now there is an entire chapter on people who believe differently called appropriately Al-Kafiroon, which does not deal with specific instances but is a general short chapter on people who do not believe the same way.

    Its one of the four Quls, one of which is read in every rakat of prayer.


    Surah 109:
    Al-Kafiroon (The Disbelievers, Atheists)

    In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

    1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

    2. I worship not that which ye worship,

    3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

    4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

    5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

    6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

    Pretty straightforward, I think
     
  13. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't read as a historical narrative, but rather as a series of statements that describe the proper attitude towards disbelievers.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Then you can't have read the verse dealing with a treaty for peace.

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    “How can there be any responsibility of these agreements on God and His messenger, except those with whom you made agreements at the Sacred Mosque? Thus, so long as they uphold their part of the treaty, you should uphold yours. Indeed God loves the righteous.” (Al-Taubah 9: 7)
     
  15. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Treaty for peace? Is that the nice word for extortion?
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Tch Tch, you guys need to look up a nice word called diplomacy.

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  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    All right, well press them up against the screen and I'll have a look at them.

    All right, I will check it out when I can.

    :shrug:

    I think so, but American politics is a complex thing. That's all I have time for.

    Well, your best and most informative method would be to read the words on the glowing off-whitish rectangular blob in front of you.

    Ah! But of course! I disagree with one thing - so much as one element or intent - and instantly I have defied Bells. I so humbly beg your pardon.

    See above. The rectangular blob thing again.

    "Jumping around, wringing your hands"? Grow up.

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    This was partially already my point. I see that you do not follow. It is no matter. I cannot lead you any further.

    Tooooo late. Your vitriol fatigues me, and most especially when I am trying to be objective. Good day.



    But unfortunately is taken as a rule for all time. And he states that the war ends when "all religion is for Allah". How can that be for self defense? "Attack the unbelievers wherever you find them"? Maybe the direct mouthpiece of God should have been a bit more careful in his meanings.

    Now there is an entire chapter on people who believe differently called appropriately Al-Kafiroon, which does not deal with specific instances but is a general short chapter on people who do not believe the same way.


    Surah 109:
    Al-Kafiroon (The Disbelievers, Atheists)[/QUOTE]

    The peaceful messages of which are abrogated by Sura 9. If Allah takes away a verse, doth he not give the same or a better with which to replace it? And so on. Violence springing from the Quran isn't absolute, but it's there and it's invoked in terrorism and societal oppression both.

    Yes. The word is dhimmi.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Not in the same edition. Its previous editions that are abrogated.

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    Almost everything is invoked in terrorism and societal oppression. The British did it for centuries without invoking anything more than inbred royalty.

    Like under the British? tch tch.
     
  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Well, all the editions have been the same since the very first Quran - or so I'm very often told - so the entire thing must be abrogated.

    So the one justifies the other. But Mohammed was getting his plays from God. Are the British also gods?

    Wait - never mind.

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  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The editions come out every few centuries. God has better things to do. :spank:


    No the British were turds. Which is why they divided everyone else but now preach fraternity.
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    You made a funny! I dare not laugh lest you become offended. You are too easily offended these days, Geoff.

    Course you will. Or maybe not.

    On the contrary. American politics is blatantly obvious and not complex at all. What is complex is their attempts to simply worm their way out of things.

    I am. For example:

    "Nan King was actually relatively small, although it was indeed genocide. Armenia wasn't genocide, but was a holocaust and it may have been on a percentage base worse than the (Jewish) Holocaust. Rwanda was also a holocaust, although I don't know if it was a genocide per se."
    Quoted from you

    ----------------------------------

    "Hello, Bells. I agree that Nan King was 'geno'cidal, although I'm not sure Armenian were of a different 'genetic' lineage to the Turks who were perpetrating the genocide. Rwanda...if you say so. There were certainly cultural differences between the Hutu and Tutsi, but I profess my ignorance as to what those are. It would be a holocaust, certainly; no idea if it was a 'geno'cide or not. I leave it up to you."
    (Again, quoted from your post)


    I could go on but there is so much indenting I am willing to commit to in a post.

    Your sarcasm, or attempt at sarcasm, fails miserably in this instance dear.

    What's funny about this is that you are more offended at someone saying "The Jew" than you are at the world's reaction (or lack of) to genocides. All you could come up with in regards to that was 'was it really a genocide?'.. Why is that?

    Get some perspective Geoff.

    You aren't going anywhere I would wish to be led to.

    Oh poo poo!

    As I said above, you are too easily offended.
     
  22. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Mad your ignoring the fact that if there were no nukes the CMC would never have happened. Also if there hadnt been nukes in turkey the CMC may well not have happened

    Your right that i got the numbers wrong and for that i apologise but your also ignoring the fact that the japanise had TRIED to surender BEFORE the 2 bombs had been droped AND that it was delibratly targeted at civilan cities rather than straight millatry targets. Also your ignoring the long term deaths from lukima and birth defects that have been linked to not only japan but to other nuclear incidents like cynobol. Im not saying that the reactor melt down was linked to the bomb i was just using it incase you were going to say they were a coincidence
     
  23. Roman Banned Banned

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    Jimmy:
    Bravo Jews, bravo. Well done in making a weapon of mass destruction! I guess you can hang out with us Americans!

    Please.


    Jiffy:
    You're hypocrisy is astounding. "Trying to be objective"? You totally flipped out at the attitude that the Jew Holocaust wasn't that big a deal. Which it's not. Genocide isn't that uncommon. When that was pointed out, you still wrung your hands about America turning away Jewish refugees from Europe. "Come on guys! There was no reaction at all while it was happening! Never again!"

    Then you had the fucking balls to equivocate on whether or not Rwanda was a genocide- a genocide that took place in your lifetime. You'd think that as Jew who cares oh so much about that shit, you would have cared a little more about the two genocides that have occurred during your adulthood. You know, remember the Holocaust, not just because some Jews died, but it could happen to any group! Some homos got killed, too (and Poles and gypsies and a whole lot of other people you clearly don't care about)!

    But of course you don't. You're a selfish fuck who only sees The Holocaust as a big deal because it targeted Jews. Who cares about black people? Clearly not you.

    Not caring about other people's not that big a deal, Geoff. I could care less about you guys. But at least I'm up front, honest, and not a fucking liar like you.

    Spidergoat:
    I value your contributions. I'm in agreement of your evaluation of human behavior like 100%. You've articulated exactly what thoughts I would like to articulate on the matter, but I get too wrapped up in Jew hating (Jeff you fucking Jew liar). However, could you keep your discussion of Islam only to genocides that have been committed by Islam?

    SAM:
    You may continue to hate on Jews with me here, but only defend Islam and deny its involvements in any genocides. Thanks!

    Asguard:
    No, you're wrong. And clinically crazy, you psycho. Why should anyone believe what a crazy person says?
     

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