Fraggle: Thanks for that, i had no idea what the electoral college was. So you've more or less cleared that up for me, however my argument still stands. If you vote for someone who is going to vote for bush then you are effectively responsible for bush getting into power.
What is my problem with America? 1. The Bush Admin. 2. The Sheeple. 3. A Two Party System 4. Fake representation 5. The Media We live in a time that I feel will decide the course of human survival as it is today. Greed has taken the place of reason. Men make up truth as they see fit. Those of us who see the world for what it has become are voiceless in a media whose main goal it to pass on the party line. Sure we rant and rave here and on other such boards but where does it get us? Does it change anything? Those who wish to change government are urged to seek respite through legal channels set up by the party hence giving no respite at all. To fight the system is to be labeled a terrorist. To sit back and let the powers that be do as they wish is to invite destruction. So what is the answer to a bully run amok? Voting this admin out and replacing them with democrats will in no way change the course we are presently on. Our elected officials do not represent the will of the people. They voice the will of corporations over the objections of the people. What is my problem with America? It’s no longer America. America has been hijacked. It’s a dead concept. It’s been given over to a few who decide the course of many and the many seem to sit back and worry about that next paycheck and voice thoughts such as “well it doesn’t affect me so why worry about it?” What’s my problem with America? Born: 7/4/76Died 9/11/02 All Hail the New Republic of Oceania!!! Big Brother is Watching!!!
The evil side of government and of the American psyche certainly got a big boost from 9/11. But America went through something very similar over the rise of Stalin and the USSR after World War Two ended. Civil rights were trampled. People were turning each other in for having had idealistic feelings about the Communist Party in their youth. The CIA didn't exist yet but the FBI was on a rampage and the House of Representatives had a committee with the outrageous name of "Un-American Activities" that was every bit as ugly and 1984-doublespeakish as the "Patriot Act." They investigated everybody they felt like, ruined a lot of people, and got away with it for the better part of a decade. (It was a TV journalist who brought down the movement's leader, Senator Joseph McCarthy. We're probably going to have to look for salvation from a different quarter this time. Oh wait, maybe it will be Jon Stewart. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!) When people are afraid, they are more willing to sacrifice their rights and freedoms for a little security. The government has indeed done a good job of making people afraid. Part of it is real; they definitely have goaded the one-sixth of the human race who are Muslims into wondering whether we're about to relaunch the Crusades, in an era when terrorists can bring the violence to your nearest shopping mall or subway station. But part of it is bogus; if there were a 9/11 every single year we'd all still be in vastly greater danger of being killed in a road accident and no one has suggested fighting a War on Traffic. (I think you can still drive legally from Miami to Seattle with an open bottle of whiskey in your cup holder.) People were afraid during the Cold War and that's what sparked McCarthyism, the John Birch Society, and all the excesses of the 1950s and early 1960s. Then suddenly it came to a screeching halt. A generation of kids grew up who just didn't find the threat of the Soviets shooting ICBMs at Chicago and Boston to be very disgruntling. Perhaps they were just inured to it because it was part of the ambience they grew up in. Perhaps they were doing intuitive risk analysis and realized that they, too, were in more danger of dying in a road accident, especially in the era before limited-access highways, safety belts, and anti-lock brakes. Or perhaps they thought the government way lying to them. I personally traveled through the Soviet Bloc in 1973 and didn't encounter a single person who did not absolutely love America and Americans. No one in their armed forces would have gone to battle against our country, no one. The end of the Vietnam War was pretty much the end of the Cold War, at least in the gut of the average American. We started rebelling against the constraints of the government and we won. Government lies have a way of unraveling. What I personally am waiting for is the day that the entire American population wakes up and finally faces the fact that it is Saudi Arabia--the Bush Dynasty's personal hand-holding gay buddies--that is our enemy. It was Saudi money, Saudi planning, and predominantly Saudi manpower that made 9/11 happen. All of our fighting in Iraq, and most of our fighting in Afghanistan, and all of our sabre-rattling against Iran and all of our stern warnings to Pakistan and all of our implied bullying of the majority of the world's Muslim population in Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Africa... all of that is a smoke screen and will have no effect on terrorism. At some point people will calm down and figure out the truth, simply because it is not at all well hidden. (I just saw a definitive book about the Saudis' role in anti-American terrorism on the table in the middle of Costco.) When that happens, it will be "the sixties" all over again. The government will be overthrown in spirit, its excesses will be reined in, we'll send troops to overthrow the Saudi government and dismantle their worldwide network of terrorist training camps, and things will be fine again for two or three decades. It's only been five years since 9/11. We probably have five more to go, but we can get through it. Then it all comes crashing down.
Fraggle: I like what you just said, very compelling, should write a book about it Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The Saudi Royal Family are business people, they love nothing more accumilating vast amounts of money for their LARGE family. Same with the Bin Ladens for that matter who have repeatedely denounced their wayward child Osama. I ultimately sense a bit of Innocence on their part because of this business reason. I cant find proof of innocence but i feel it... However i will note that the popularity of the Saudi Royal Family has been declining since 9/11 because of its touchy feely hugging and kissing relationship with Bush and his family.
I was 10 in 1973 so my view of the world back then was pretty much Bruce Lee and what was playing at the Lowes Gate on Saturday [remember the days of the double features?]. I really hope your right. I'd love to live through a sixties type era. Flower Power, Free Love, minds coming alive and wanting to stick it to the man, Great music, etc... I just hope we all as a country live another 5 years to realize the errors of our leaders and do something to change what they sowed.
I love it. Marxists fawning over each other's drivel!!! Notta one independent thinker among you!! Ever heard of nuance?? Do any of you know how to differentiate? BTW- I was unaware America was born on 7/4/76!! Why is this because Carter was about to be elected President? To think, I always thought our independence was declared in 1776. No wonder I am so stupid about the meaning about being an American and the purposes of government!! Thanks for the insight. I feel refreshed to know that now I can finally proceed with the same mind numbing thoughts the rest of you have. Long live Marxism!!!! Long live multiculturalism!!!! Long live the welfare state!!!! Long live tax hikes!!!! Long live the demise of capitalism!!!! Long live global warming!!!! Long live racial quotas!!!! Long live the UN!!!! Long live Castro!!!! Long live Chavez!!!! Long live Saddam!!!! Long live torts!!!! I feel so....so....so liberated!!!!
Not crazy, he's just busily slinging mud, so as not to appear slow to the rest of the class. Fraggle:"It was Saudi money, Saudi planning, and predominantly Saudi manpower that made 9/11 happen." I think that's unfair to Arabians, and unfair even to the very extended Saudi Royal Family. Osama and al-Qaeda became complete pariahs to these patriarchs. The fortunes Bin Laden managed after leaving commercial construction business was assuredly from sources highly antagonistic to the Saudi monarchy. Although Bin Laden was himself the benefactor of Royal trickle-down riches, that inheritance ended when he began condemning the monarchy early in his mujaheddin career. He bit the hand that fed him juicy contracts, and found a new revenue stream, along with notoriety. A large part of the problem Americans have understanding our situation is the disinformation. It's such a pity, when Bin Laden's career, and Arabian dissent are not difficult to learn about- but the many deliberately confusing plots swirling at the most superficial surface of politics and journalism can blunt the senses by sheer volume of drivel. As a nation we are much too repeatedly failing to recognize the true sources and true nature of the terrorism we so frequently fret, equivocate, bluster, and wage war about. spacemansteve hinted at what I'm talking about: "The Saudi Royal Family are business people, they love nothing more accumilating vast amounts of money for their LARGE family. Same with the Bin Ladens for that matter who have repeatedely denounced their wayward child Osama. I ultimately sense a bit of Innocence on their part because of this business reason." We shouldn't need educating to know that Arabia is run by a mafia. I don't think anyone here needs reminding that the Sa'uds are close clients of Washington establishment, especially in terms of military and covert operations. We shouldn't need reminding that in spite of a cozy relationship (so cozy that it is only rivalled by Israel in the region) Arabia is in the process of going unstable. This is why all overt American forces were so graciously invited to quickly and entirely leave the Kingdom in 2003. Had we stayed, Riyadh would likely resemble Baghdad today. But Baghdad isn't that far away. And the Blows we have struck in Iraq are splitting a Shi'a-Sunni fault line that runs right through the Gulf States, the Eastern Province, until the Gulf of Aden. The Royals know what's coming, and they are ready at the drop of a Gutra to retire to their estates and investments abroad. For those that get out with their heads attached, life will be good. But for everyone else, including their American friends, there will be a crisis that will rapidly exceed the traumas of 1973 Arab embargo and 1979 Islamic revolution all rolled into one.
With the only republican or democrat haters, it probably has something to do with politcal affiliation. Why is there so much bashing no matter who is in office. Perhaps because we are so materialistic, or because as a whole, we are so stupid and fat. Maybe because we try to rule the world and impose our laws, way of life, and government syatem on them. Or it could be because of any other innumerable list of reasons, but I think those are the top 4. I live in America. And I choose to "bite the hand that feeds me" because they make me think that I'm so smart, by making everyone around me so stupid. Then, if I go to any other free country, I am, at best, mediocore. Also, they impose their laws on me, and I do not accept that. Why should I obey someone elses veiw of right and wrong. I can "protect" my own freedom, I have a gun, a damn good one. 3 doesn't apply to me.
Oniw17: "I can "protect" my own freedom, I have a gun, a damn good one." Surely you're not serious. Do you really think that Iraqis who think and dress just like you can protect their freedoms with damn good guns? If so, you probably think that life is going happily and well in Iraq for Iraqis who work and fight alongside Americans. Which is fucking amazing to me. "Why should I obey someone elses veiw of right and wrong?" Because if you cannot live by that fundamental social contract, you will be branded a criminal, and persecuted- but it won't be a Hollywood lark. Life inevitably sucks when one really can't play nicely with other kids.
They themselves think they are the worldpolice but are perceived by the rest of the world as crazy warmongers. .The american people need to stand up against their government, but sadly they are too fat to move. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Everything you wrote under this heading was reasonable. Nonetheless, every poll consistently shows that the majority of the people of Saudi Arabia hate America and Americans. Every terrorist training camp for little boys throughout the Islamic world that masquerades as a "school" for parents with no other options is funded by Saudi money. The Arabian people are our sworn enemies. Perhaps their dictators are more pragmatic, but considering that every year they show up on the Top Five of every list of the World's Most Despicable Despots, I don't see much reason to split hairs over them. They're a nasty bunch and if we're looking to establish democracy, freedom, and tolerance in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is the cesspool that needs to be drained first. I'm not terribly disinformed or confused when random interviews with Arabian housewives reveal that they would be proud of their sons if they became suicide bombers, and that many of them dream of doing it themselves. Women have been the force for peace in almost every human culture. When a nation's women condone not just violence but violence without honor, there's nothing to be said about that society except that it is sick. When women wish for their sons to go out and kill other women's infants, the feminine side of that society has been suppressed for too many dozens of generations. This is the result of thousands of years of patriarchal, monotheistic religions. Entire countries have the morality of frat houses. And yes, as anyone familar with my posts knows, I paint Christianity, Judaism, and Islam with the same brush. They are noxious and the world would be a far better place without the lot of them.
My wife grew up in Arabia, and I have lived there, in Yemen, and in Lebanon. You are painting with a very broad brush indeed. As I already mentioned, the religious and violent trappings of dissent are not as profound or pervasive as they might seem. Religion is typically the last refuge of political action within police states such as have taken a much-resented hold in far too much of the Mideast. Because we are thrown off by this, Americans and our government have wound up on the wrong side of popular movements for reform. As a whole we are failing to understand that it is only in a religious context that dissent can find a footing in such countries. If you study modern Iran, you can learn that Iran (especially urban Iran) is a secular, Western-leaning society dressed up in Islamic robes. Iraq is now putting on the same raimants largely because we have been making similar policy mistakes there. "every poll consistently shows that the majority of the people of Saudi Arabia hate America and Americans." That's not in the least bit credible to me, as a Westerner familiar with Arabia, who maintains contact with people living in the Kingdom. They hate the policies we allow our government to prosecute, but most have strong curiosity and affinity for Americans. "They're a nasty bunch and if we're looking to establish democracy, freedom, and tolerance in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is the cesspool that needs to be drained first." No, this is a country whose aristocracy may be corrupt, but whose substantial middle class has been educated largely in the USA. They understand us. We don't understand them, because we confuse a terrorist minority and majority antagonism for our American government policies as being some form of backwardness or a religious radicalism exceeding what is found in the American heartland (for instance). Popular Arab rhetoric is spicier than ours, but they do a lot less random killing of us than the converse. Arabians certainly have the motive, knowledge, means and manpower to reduce us to an enraged police state with nothing more than a few dozen car bombs. Yet they have not. I understand why, but apparently you don't get it. Should we attempt "draining the swamp" by any means as outsiders, the results will be identical as we are witnessing in Iraq. Remember too, that Arabia is not a culturally homogenous territory, but one ruled by a singular tribal elite among many others just as authentic, and deeply divided along Shi'a/Sunni lines. "This is the result of thousands of years of patriarchal, monotheistic religions. Entire countries have the morality of frat houses." In terms of havoc wreaked, you must admit that the USA has unleashed far more death and destruction than any Arabian crackpots. Just because everyday Arabs can recognize this does not mean that they are all living in the 12th Century. "When women wish for their sons to go out and kill other women's infants, the feminine side of that society has been suppressed for too many dozens of generations." This happens in American society- Although we may be more verbally tactful, the results in the streets of places like Fallujah, Ramadi, Haditha, and Baghdad are identical: Mothers "Support Our Troops", and as a result Iraqis watch their kids die in their own streets. You don't need a religion to get pissed about this if it happens daily one border away, where there are many family ties. However, given that the mosques and madrasas are the only safe places for political organizing to occur in any tangible form in Arabia, that's where history is happening. I believe that there are atheists in foxholes, just as I believe that there are atheists in mosques. "Christianity, Judaism, and Islam with the same brush. They are noxious and the world would be a far better place without the lot of them." I personally am an atheist, and I can wholeheartedly agree just that far. However, these will not fade away as a result of foreign manipulations, but will instead always feed on, and ever be perpetuated by any outside meddling , shows of force, or violence. In order for disparate cultures to coexist whatever their proximity, there has to be a line of respect when it comes to religious traditions. All major traditions have had to conform to a certain standard of pacifism in order to endure, and Islam is no exception. Islam is a religion forged in tribal warfare, but steeped in traditions of hospitality, mercy, and compromise that put standard American Christian practices to shame. We need not fear the wrath of popular Islamic fervor. We need only be intelligent enough to step out of the way when local and regional injustices beyond our ethical jurisdiction precipitate an unstoppable turning of the tide. American policy is being directed by interests trying to hold an impossible status quo, and the sooner we realize this the greater will be our near and long-term security and prosperity in the United States.
For my answer to the question of this thread; See (in this forum) the new thread: "How DUMB can US voters be? First posts of new question thread ends with: "What do you think?", so please comment. That first post is also in the Business & Economics forum thread: "Alcohol fuel - The obvious answer, Yes or No?" as the focus is on the economic cost of US's current plans to use corn based alcohol.
Bush told the lie "they hate our freedom" because Bush did not want us hearing that "they hate US government foreign policy". Bush did not want us Americans second guessing our government's foreign policy.
nirakar: You raised a very good point there, something that many people miss when they debate about this. I congratulate you on raising that. My opinion is still somewhat different but i like it none the less
All right, I defer to your personal experience. But if it doesn't work out that way, I'll send you the bill. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And for the record, as I stated, I feel just as strongly about the religious roots of intolerance in the USA. The feminine has been pushed down into the dark side of all of Mesopotamian civilization including our Greco-Roman brand, since the advent of evangelical patriarchal monotheism. If ever there was a country that behaves like one giant frat house, it is 21st Century America.
Well, if there's anything that I can't protect myself from with my damn good gun, then nobody else can protect me from it either. Thus, it is inevitable, and just nature. If you really believe any differently, you're only lying to yourself. My friend William Burner was killed at only 10 years old, in America, 2 houses down from me. And no, I don't think that life is going good over in Iraq, and I'm pretty sure that the U.S. bombing the fuck out of them when we first went over didn't help their lives much either. When did I choose to be part of that social contract? And again you are shown to be a lier. My cousin has been ripping off houses for crack money since he was 15. He's now 22. He has disobeyed one of the only laws that have anything to do with protecting us, with no penalty. Willie's killer has never been found either. Now tell me, if a government serves no purpose, and I am forced to obey it, is it not oppression?
