What is your problem with America?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by radicand, May 19, 2006.

  1. finewine Registered Senior Member

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    "The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue; and if this cannot be inspired into our people in a greater measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty. They will only exchange tyrants and tyrannies." John Adams
     
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  3. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Governments and the people who run them have a tendency to never be satisfied with the amount of power they have. They always reach for more power unless they fear that the reaching for more power will backfire on them and cost them there power. I don't blame the politicians; the are just following their unconscious human instincts when they find some way to convince themselves that they should aquire more power for themself and for the government and for (our side/tribe/nation {the modern human replacement for the chimpanzee band} ).

    Our job as patriots is to scare our government and leaders into not reaching for more power. The politicians wrap themselves in the flag of our nation/tribe/tradionalism/and self group identity, in order to covince us to give them power. Our politicians also try to scare us into believeing that they are needed to protect us from the bad guys and protect us from the decay of the traditions and culture that helped our forefathers survive and make our culture what it is.

    The dems scare me less than the Republicans do because when the dems claim to protect the weak against the abuse by the powerful the dems make it apear that they are not as willing to use power for selfish ends as the republicans are.

    Republicans love tough talk and macho anger. Democrats do whiny hepless anger. I don't trust anybody who gets turned on by anger. I don't trust anybody who tries to manipulate my fellow Americans and who talks to them as if they were stupid. Americans and everybody else in the world may be stupid but if we expect the common people to take responsibility for self governing and to therefore take responsibility for the future well-being of humanity and the planet, then we need our leader to talk to the people as if they were mature adults. We the people should not tollerate government secrecy. We also should not tollerate our politicians attempts to manipulate our emotional triggers by apeals to our tradionalism and our clannish us verses them thinking.

    I love America; that is why I don't like stereotypical patriots. Misguided patriots would let our leaders destroy America in the name of saving America.

    Our foreign policy has never been what our leaders would have us believe it is. Special interests that help our leaders hold power have always warped the USA's foreign policy in order to enrich themselves or in the case of the Israel lobby in order to protect Israel.

    Mossadegh was toppled in the name of fighting communism, but in truth toppling Mossadegh had nothing to do with fighting communism. Toppling Mossadegh helped communism and helped Islamic extremism and was a setback for the spread of democracy and prosperity throughout the world. I don't want the American people to continue allowing our government to make the kind of stupid mistakes that toppling Mossadegh, Arbenz, Sukarno were. Toppling Aristide seems to be part of that idiotic pattern.

    The neocon/PNAC thinking seems to be unsound and corrupted by these macho geeks infatuation with power. Thinking that the USA should view the fall of the Soviet Union as a chance for America to wisely lead the world through the next century by dominating the world for the good of the world seems idiotic to me. It won't work. The world will not be doiminated and the USA's economy is not strong enough to finance the effort to dominate the world. But as I understand it this attempt at world domination for the good of the world is the philosophy of Rumsfeld/Cheney/Wolfowitz.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think it is important to differentiate between the American people vs the American government.

    I wish more people would vote though.
     
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  7. candy Valued Senior Member

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    My problem with the US is that the Consttution is far too often treated as just another piece of parchment instead of the framework of the government. The Constitution really should be "the words we live by".
     
  8. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    American citizens are entirely responsible for our government and its policies. Shaped as our opions may be by agendas we may not take the time to comprehend, our opinions (or lack of them) are the real personal responsibility of every American.

    If there is one shred of righteous justification in a stereotypical terrorist's campaign, in a trade war or embargo, in a sudden foreign divestment from the US economy, or any other moral/amoral benign/malevolent effort to influence, then the kernel of all the crimes and sorrows that may swirl around all of this mess is this: All Americans, right down to the least influential among us, are entirely responsible for the conduct of our government. There are rationalizations all around for not taking responsibility in a democracy, but of course these are all counter-democratic arguments recycled by democratic cripples.

    The American people will halt all lost causes in the instant we collectively recognize them as such. The occupation of Iraq is going to last just as long as the American public puts up with it- not one day less nor one day more.

    Considering our general political isolation from the mideast, Americans are negotiating a very steep learning curve as we discover that the Bush adventures (Iraq and America's new international Gulag) have been complete disasters in terms of the interests of the American People as a whole in terms of both the present and the foreseeable future.

    The present Bush Administration conceived and carried out their nation-building and espionage campaigns in defiance of what was well-established in so many disciplines (law, history, political science, ethnology, sociology, etc etc). As reality inevitably continues to reveal the complete and unavoidable folly of wildly unrealistic policy, there is going to be a momentous shift in American politics.

    As with the early post-Nixon era, this may be played down in future, but nevertheless America is being groggily awoken, and we have the weirdest of days ahead.

    We never profoundly reconsidered our place in the world after the fall of the Soviet Union. But the clock has been ticking. We're repulsed by national introspection, because it clashes with our cherished national confidence. But a dangerous flirtation with fascism is forcing events that will in turn force a historic national self-examination. The character of the USA is at a fork in the path: Now we choose, and now we realize that we will all face the future results of our national choice.

    America is already turning on the Busheviks, but still habitually looking around for a savior that isn't coming. Stand up on your own feet, Americans- Our Founders clearly explained how.
     
  9. Paul H Registered Member

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    1. Why do you find it necessary to constantly bash America, especially when a repub is in office? For some the bashing is consistent, so why? For others, it only happens when repubs are in office. And, yes there are some who bash when a dem is in office. Why?
    \\
    2. I am guessing that, in the American tradition, Americans have no idea what is happening outside their boarders.Possibly becaus3 CNN does not tell you.

    Why “bash” America… where to begin?

    America throws its weight around in an unseemly manner. I think the last “county” on Earth that has invaded more countries than the USA, was Rome, 2000 years ago. America has become an obvious bully. With the biggest guns.

    Now, you may smile at that. But refer your question, above.

    “Do what I say, or else”…. Works when your have the biggest (economic or otherwise) guns. But no one likes to be lorded over.

    Especially when America shows no moral superiority to go with its nukes.

    As an aside, you should know, for surely CNN will never tell you this. Most of Europe considers the USA to be a sociological basket-case, an object of ridicule, and something that must be endured until better times arrive.

    By now you know that there are others who’s countries you’ve enslaved, think even less of you.

    Just be greatful they can’t afford the weapons that you can.
     
  10. candy Valued Senior Member

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    1,016
    The average American does not really care if the Europeans think we are "socialogical basket-case". Having spent the better part of the last century cleaning up messes of European origins most Americans do not place a high value European thoughts. The days of European colonialism and cultural domination have ended. Too bad the Europeans have not figured this out.
     
  11. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

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    And now America is culturally dominant.

    Cultural domination is dead. Long live cultural domination.
     
  12. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    Just so ya know, this morning I got to watch a new nuclear missle be fired off from Vandenberg AFB.

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    The arms race has once again begun..

    - N
     
  13. spacemansteve Not enough brain space Registered Senior Member

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    Just to add to the debate about the US government... If the US government is Evil then why not get rid of it? Its called Democracy. A government is the representation of the people so going by that logic the American people must be evil. Now i'm the first person to admit when a government gets in power and stays there for a long time it becomes a bit corrupt, but surely when the next election comes around you can vote for an alternative?

    I'm just saying that don't be so harsh on the government when the majority of the people voted that government in. Yes i understand its not compulsory to vote there so it may not technically be majority, and yes i know that bush only won because of a court case.

    The American system of government is a concern. I believe that a full democracy is not achieved unless you get a concensus of all the people. Here down under its compulsory to vote in all Elections, including the ones no-one cares about down here, local councils. Subsequently my argument back to people who want to have a whinge about the Australian government is "well technically 6/10 of the people here had to have voted for them so its your own fault"

    I guess what i'm trying to get at is the Government is a reflection of the people, so when you abuse the government of its decisions, have a closer look at what democracy is.

    P.S. Please don't beat me up on that last comment

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  14. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Democracy is good because it enables a peaceful overthrow of bad governments. The problem is that the US government has been lying to the American people about the nature of US foreign policy. This lying has been going on at least since the 1950s. Perhaps the lying may go back farther than that. The use of the sinking of the Maine in 1898 as a pretext to aquire the colonies as far away as the Philippines indicates that the lying may predate the misuse of the cold war to service the corporate welfare state.

    So, the American people and the American media bare the responibility for allowing themselves to be continuously lied to. If Bush been forced to admit the goal of invading Iraq was to implement Neocon/ PNAC theory rather than to make the USA and world safe from Saddam's WMDs, then congress never would have voted for the Iraq war because the American people would never have approved the committing billions of dollars and the lives of our service men to implement a Neocon/ PNAC theories that are probably incorrect theories.

    We have never even have had a open debate on whether PNACs goals are sensible enough to make them the USA's national policy. Who should we blame for the American peoples failure to participate it the directing of the USA's foreign policy?
     
  15. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, real Democracy is good, if it doesn't become corrupted, then its a false form of democracy, in our current case its called: Fascism
     
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    An educated populace is the cornerstone of democracy. I haven't got the attribution on that but it's an ancient quote. The American people have become ignorant, irrational, and gullible, and proud of it. Democracy isn't worth much under these conditions. We're slowly losing it by attrition.
     
  17. DJ Erock Resident Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    The majority of voters didn't vote for Bush, he lost the popular vote
     
  18. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    That's true for the 2000 election. 2004 remains unclear, but in the wake of 9-11 we weren't (still aren't) as rational a voting populace as in other times. There still is no vocal American majority repudiating empire, K-Street, and trickle-down economics.
     
  19. spacemansteve Not enough brain space Registered Senior Member

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    I'm not too sure what popular vote and a normal vote means... At the end of the day Bush got into power and he did so using the Democratic system of government that the US people are so in love with (and a court case

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    ). It is my argument that if there is anything wrong with the Government its the responsibility of the people that government represents to fix it.

    I know that at this current stage its 2 yrs from an election, but having said that, i firmly believe that if people vote another george bush in, then its a reflection of the majority of the populace of the US... Ignorant and Stupid
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Some times you have to be precise with language because it makes an important difference. Our system of government really is a republic, not a democracy. The President is not elected directly by the people. He is elected by the Electoral College, and the members of the Electoral College are elected by the people. That two-tier system of delegating the power to choose to a body of people we elect is what makes the difference between a direct democracy and a republic. To bring the point home, remember that if the Electoral College vote turns out to be a tie, the House of Representatives then gets to choose--another body of people we elected.

    We never get to elect the President ourselves. The potential disparity between the popular vote and the Electoral College vote has been well analyzed. Montana and Rhode Island each get three votes, which is way out of proportion to their populations. A state gets the same number of votes regardless of whether its citizens flock to the polls or just stay home on election day. If there's a hurricane in Rhode Island and most of the voters stay home, each of the ones who votes has far greater proportional power over the election than any voter in New York.

    Worst of all, the people we send to the Electoral College are only bound by tradition and scruples to vote for the candidate they promised to vote for. Once they get there, they can vote for anybody they want. There have been 158 cases in which the Elector did not vote as expected. (They even have an official term for it: "Faithless Electors.") In almost half of the cases it was because their candidate died and they did their best to muddle through a choice of successor. (I'm surprised we didn't read about this in school, this is fascinating stuff.) But in the other cases they actually betrayed their constituents. Laws have been passed in many states since then mandating Electors to vote as ordered. Even the Supreme Court has ruled. But it's not clear what happens if they don't do it. Does their vote stand anyway and they just go to jail for it?
     
  21. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    All true, Fraggle BUT

    Like all major polls, the popular vote matters because in a particular form of national crisis confidence in the Executive is everything, the only blest tie that binds. In the moment that is lost, Americans will awaken in shock to learn the Union has passed into idyllic, affluent history. (sigh)

    I am increasingly tempted to suggest we just close down this plantation. Plus there aren't enough NSA spiders in here yet, dontcha think?
     
  22. Dr Hannibal Lecter Gentleman and Cannibal. Registered Senior Member

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    No; it's an oligarchy controlled by oil and banking juntas, posing as a representative democracy.
     
  23. Sci-Phenomena Reality is in the Minds Eye Registered Senior Member

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    Quite right Hannibal, that means its time for a peaceful revolution, and if that doesn't happen soon, we will all be gutted and eaten like the American Fish we are.
     

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