What is wrong with being a Conspiracy Theorist?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Jan Ardena, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Nice job, Mac! I fully agree.

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    One more element that drives some of them: some live such boring, dull lives that they are looking for *anything* to add some excitement in their lives. That leads them into accepting all sorts of nutty things - conspiracy theories, bigfoot, space aliens (and abductions), ghosts, psi abilities, etc. Basically anything you might find on the cover of those insane tabloids at the supermarket checkout lane.
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I haven't read the entrire thread yet so some one may have already posted the idea...
    If someone comes up to you and says that he just won $100,000 usd on the lottery and you say you don't believe him.
    Is that saying you believe in a conspiracy?
    If he produces a lottery ticket that looks genuine and you still say you dont; believe him does that mean you believe in a conspiracy?
    If he shows you a wad of money that he says he just withdrwew on the lottery winnings and you say you don't believe him are you still being guilty of believing in a conspiracy?

    At what point does one define a conspiracy?
    A government agency with a history of deception makes a claim and is disbelieved by the community is this a belief in a conspiracy.
    If someone says he has university qualifications yet demonstrates the lack of emotional skills needed to acheive that qualification and you don't believe them a belief in a conspiracy?
    If a poster here at sciforums repeatedly demonstrates deceptive or dishonest posting and you say you don't believe him regardless of the written proof he offers, is this a belief in a conspiracy?
    Is just saying you disbelieve someones "word", a sign you believe in a conspiracy?
    Does disbelief alone imply a conspiracy is believed to be present?
    Is accusing someone of believing in a conspiracy in itself a conspiracy against that person?

    "Was the little boy who yelled out "The Emperor has no clothes on!"... guilty of a conspiracy against the Emperor.

    see my point?
     
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  5. Balerion Banned Banned

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    No, I can't see your point at all. Are you really unfamiliar with the definition of "conspiracy?" I mean, that's shocking to me. But okay, let me clear it up: it's a plan formulated by two or more people, and has negative connotations. So no, the boy who yelled that the emperor has no clothes wouldn't be guilty of a conspiracy unless he planned it with someone else. Nor would the lottery ticket example work, on any level. Simply disbelieving something doesn't mean you assume a conspiracy in its place.
     
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  7. psikeyhackr Live Long and Suffer Valued Senior Member

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    If you read your post #49 you will see that you quoted me there.

    Is that obvious enough?

    psik
     
  8. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    I think in order for something to be declared a conspiracy, there has to be cooperation of many people to achieve a nefarious goal.

    For instance. A murderer secretly plots to kill someone. He is working alone. This is usually just premeditated murder. No charges of conspiracy are put on him in court.

    Now change this to a group of people plotting to kill someone. Then the one who commits the actual murder is charged with murder and everyone involved in the plotting, including the one who actually killed the victim, are charged with conspiracy to commit murder.

    If you really believe one individual is lying in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you are not a conspiracy theorist, you are just delusional, paranoid, in denial, or plain stupid.
    We dont have a pet name for people like this other than the terms I listed. This is a behavior just too common in society and it is likely everyone of us is this person on occasion when we don't like the story we are being told.

    But for someone to really believe that an entire organization, or at least large group of people, are lying in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then we regard them to be on a special level of the previous. They are also either delusional, paranoid, in denial, or just plain stupid, but on a much grander level and issues of special extremes usually earn special pet names. In this case, a conspiracy theorist. This behavior is far less common and the majority of people do not take things this far.
     
  9. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    I'm not going to get into a tit for tat debate with you. Goad someone else.

    I quoted your entire post, perhaps a mistake of mine since i was only addressing the first line of it. As soon as you brought up physics, I ignored the rest of your post because it gave me the impression that you were simply going to start rehashing your own particular conspiracy theory , and that is exactly what you ended up doing, which I have absolutely no interest in.
     
  10. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Nope. Just more than one. It could be two, three, etc., but there only needs to be two for it to be a conspiracy.
     
  11. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    Thanks for the clarification. It still stands though, that believing that an individual is lying to you does not constitute a conspiracy. It would have to be, as you said, two or more. Have you ever seen the movie, "Mean Girls"? Lot's of conspiring going on there. But there were conspiracies actually taking place, so would not fall into the category of conspiracy theorists. If you haven't seen it you can just read a synopsis of it. It's a good example of real life common occurrences of real conspiracies. Between teenage girls in a school.
     
  12. Balerion Banned Banned

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    I've heard good things, but never saw it. I'm a big fan of Tina Fey, as well.

    As for your point, yes, it stands. I still can't believe that QQ didn't understand the concept, so maybe I'm just missing something. To the point of what does it mean to be a "conspiracy theorist," I think I should point out that I don't agree with the idea that the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a regular person is simply the validity of their claim. There is much more to it than that. Conspiracy theorists aren't simply wrong, they're also paranoid and laughably credulous, as well as usually suffering from some kind of egomania. They always think they've figured it out, and know better than the experts.
     
  13. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    You may want to add to that list obsessiveness. They usually obsess to some degree. Basing decisions they make on the belief that their theory is true. They spend a majority of their time pondering the hows and whys of the conspiracy. Someone who believes our water supply is being drugged to keep us all under mind control may move to the mountains where they can access water they believe to be clean. Or they may invent gadgets that magically clean the imaginary mind control drugs from their water. Convincing others that their theory is true becomes a life's passion interfering with their ability to maintain healthy relationships with others.

    Giving QQ the benefit of the doubt, it may not be that he didn't understand it himself. But may have been playing advocate for the unregistered guests reading that may not fully grasp the concept and was simply asking what they may well have been asking in their own minds but were too shy to ask.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    ok I agree... and thanks for the correction. In terms commonly used a "conspirator" has to act in association with some one else . a minmum of two.
    again thanks for the insight into common usage.
    the thing to consider possibly that all persons exhibitinig paranoia [ which accounts for just about every one in some from whether that be minor or major symptoms ] have in some way a belief in a conspiracy against them. eg : concerns about the truth behind "climate change" "increased siesmic acivity" etc...given all the various vested interests involved is not surprising.

    I was just intersted in the above as a better understandng of paranoia generally speaking.

    In away I did not fully understand the distinction.. There was a key element missing from common use of the term "conspiracy theorist" and the nature of paranoia.
    Typically one accused correctly of a being part of a conspiracy will counter accuse the claimant with allegations of "delusion, paranoia etc, to hide their guilt. The problem is, even if one is innocent of the accusation a similar counter claim will no doubt, be inevitably suggested.
    So it is often difficult to determine and a constant vexation is present as to whether a person is "paranoid" or actually well founded in their accusations of conspiracy.
    To have doubt about the veracity of the claim and then seek assistance from others to prove that doubt correct will inevitably lead to the possibility of being accused of being deluded and paranoid by those seeking to hide their guilt.

    example:
    wife keeps turning up late from work and smells of beer and smoke, and no interest in her partner on given evenings [ regular as clock work]
    Husband decides somthing is up and employs a private detective to find out. [deluded perhaps but seeks to test his feelings]
    PD discovers wife is having an affair with another male. Pictures are taken and audio recordings are all shown to the husband.
    Husband then conspires with male freind to catch wife out. After noticing somethign is up and her cover is blown, wife accuses husband of being deluded and paranoid and jealous.
    Wife takes out a court restraining order on husband because she fears for his mental health therfore her safety.

    So what I am saying is that conspiracy theorist are not just HAARP, or end times cover up or what ever, they come in many and varied forms and accusations of mental helath issues is the most common counter claim to destroy any credibiity of the person making the claim of betrayal.
     
  15. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    Something subtle to point out here is that you state someone doubts a claim and then sets out to PROVE the doubt correct. If they are determined to prove their doubt correct then yes that would be conspiracy theory. But if the person doubts a claim and sets out to discover if the doubt is warranted it is not a conspiracy theorist. The conspiracy theorist operates off the premise that their doubt is correct and they need only to prove it. while an average person may have doubts but are open to the possibility that the doubts are unfounded and prefers to find the truth even if it conflicts with their own doubts.
    The husband did not display conspiracy theory paranoia. a conspiracy theorist believes OTHERS are conspiring. The woman used deception to attempt to appear innocent. Unless others joined in with her and gave her false alibis and false witness testimony that her husband was dangerous, there was no conspiracy on her part. Just dishonesty.

    The evidence you stated that gave him suspicion would have given any average person reason to suspect her behavior. He didn't just divorce her based on his suspicion though, he had her investigated by a professional and accepted the conclusion that was reached and so planned to confront her.

    If the PD had come back and said look she has taken a second job at a bar to make ends meet but didn't want you to know because she felt you would disapprove, but he still insisted she was cheating and possibly with the PD. Well then he ignores solid evidence that is contrary to his suspicions and comes up wtih new conspiracy theories to justify rejecting the evidence. THAT is a conspiracy theorist and a classic display of paranoia.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    no divorce is mentioned... court restraining order is.


    1. wife conspires with lover and betrays a trust.
    2. husband conspires witgh Private detctive to reveal that beach of trust.
    3. husband conspires with friend to catch wife.
    4. wife conspires with the court to restrain him convincing the courst the husband is acting in deluded and conspirational fashion.


    well thats the story I presented... I think....

    And it is worth considering that in deeper psychological terms any person who makes a plan of any type is conspiring with them selves to carry out that plan.
     
  17. seagypsy Banned Banned

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    I explained the scenario you presented and why it was not a conspiracy theory. Then i offered a slightly changed version of the story that would represent a conspiracy theory.

    Did I lose you?

    You cannot conspire with yourself. It defies the definition of conspire. Conspiring is when 2 or more people plot and scheme. If there is not at least 2 people involved in the planning, it is not conspiracy. Planning a surprise party with family and friends would be a conspiracy. Planning a quiet dinner at home without any outside advice is not a conspiracy. See the difference? 1 planner- no conspiracy... 2 or more planners, conspiracy.
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I would suggest that you do some research into the subject before making any out right claims.
    especially psycho-paths - socio-paths etc etc...and persons indicating self talk that is disturbing [ hearing of voices and self talking in the public domain - symptomatic of paranoid schizophrenia [ NPD]]
    whom quite often demonstrate this inner self conspiracy whether it be with the Devil or Satan or there pet dog, is irrelevant....
     
  19. Balerion Banned Banned

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    In your example, there are two sets of conspirators, but no one is acting like a conspiracy theorist. A conspiracy theorist believes there is some cover-up afoot, a delusion brought about by their paranoia. Someone who thinks his wife is cheating on him could very well suffer from a type of paranoid delusion, but this usually comes from low self-esteem and/or trust issues, not the kind of paranoia that makes people believe in shadow governments and the like. The husband in your example has reason to suspect something is going on (this is assuming the smell of beer and cigarettes is unusual given the wife's profession, and that her disinterest in sex has nothing to do with her working a long shift, of course). I don't know what you're trying to imply by the wife's restraining order, so I'd appreciate some clarification there, but in this case you're not discussing conspiracy theorists.

    Again, you're talking about people actually perpetrating conspiracies, not conspiracy theorists. And in reality, only the wife would be conspiring, since the word means that two or more people are coming together to do something wrong. The husband hiring a PI and then his buddy wouldn't necessarily be wrong, if he's got reason to believe she's cheating. Maybe it's not the healthiest approach, but I wouldn't say he'd be inherently wrong.

    You're trying to explore what it takes to be adulterous and hide it, but that's not even remotely on-topic. We're talking about what it takes to see things in every shadow. It's important to remember that even though a conspiracy only requires two people, conspiracy theorists tend to see conspiracy everywhere, and usually at a large scale. Look at what it takes to believe 9/11 was an inside job: You have to believe that the highest levels of government got together and decided to kill thousands of Americans so that a war in the middle east would be approved, that this plan leaked to no one at all who might have blown the whistle, that three buildings in NYC were rigged with explosives with no one in the building being any the wiser, and that all of this is easier to believe than a group of hijackers with box cutters and flight training flying planes into buildings. Think of the level of self-delusion required to swallow that.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    all fair comment thanks....
    I was merely trying to expand the notions a bit, as conspiracy theorist "are everywhere...wooo wooo!!!"

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  21. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Well, you're on the right track in that sense. There are a ton of them, even without having to expand the definition to include people who unreasonably believe their husbands or wives are cheating on them. Some of it is ignorance, too. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily true that everyone who buys into the 9/11 conspiracy is a paranoid freak. In a lot of cases, it's simply that they don't know the facts, and they're swayed by real lunatics who are intentionally misleading them.
     
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I'll give you an example to have fun with:

    I don't believe that the oil rig disaster that killed 11 men in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010 was a man made only event. In fact I don't believe BP petroleum could have prevented the disaster no matter what they did.
    I believe that it could have been caused by seismic activity, [ an earthquake that shattered the well head [concrete base structure] ]
    I believe that possibly BP and the USA Gov. conspired to deny siesmic activity as the primary cause to prevent the Gulf of Mexico Oil field generally from being shut down therefore removing this incredibly valuable resource from the USA petroleum industry.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill
    have fun with my conspiracy theory...

    yep I am deluded and fixated on siesmic reports at the moment and this just occurred to me whilst doing my research...
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    well how many ct's do you have against your government right at this moment. oh no... are you a c theorist... see?
     

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