What is the worst act of the Iranian government towards another nation?

Discussion in 'History' started by S.A.M., Nov 30, 2010.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Well you have to admit the possibilities of the US extending its educational opportunities to Iran on how to influence people and win friends are limitless.
     
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  3. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    There is no such thing as due process in war.
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The Nuremberg laws tribunals and the Geneva convention beg to disagree but its okay - only morons continue to abide by international laws.
     
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  7. Gustav Banned Banned

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    sam
    what was it about that period? newly independent nations throwing of the yoke of colonialism, excited about the prospects rebuilding a new society, looking towards america as a shining example of a just and righteous civilization only to be betrayed and fucked up the ass, treated like pawns in the "great game"?

    silly romantic
    understand this
    never ever turn your back on the white man
    y'know, forked tongues and whatnot

    /smirk
     
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    The Geneva conventions allow killing to occur without any due process.
     
  9. Gustav Banned Banned

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    sam
    these seemingly noble sentiments mask and make a mockery of historical fact
    no one gives a shit about the timorese least of all the "peace and freedom loving" aussies

    At the time of writing, there are about 40,000 Australian troops in East Timor. They are not there to defend Timorese workers, but to defend Australian business interests and investments, the vast oil fields and reserves under the sea between East and West Timor and northern Australia and, if necessary, to take on the Indonesian armed forces in any future dispute. It should not be forgotten that, in 1964, the government of Prime Minister, Sir Robert Menzies, planned to bomb Indonesia and its capital, Jakarta, if it escalated its confrontation with Malaysia. And, in fact, Australia sent troops as well as the SAS into Indonesian Borneo/Kalimantan. Such are the priorities of capitalism.

    http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/may00/worldmay.html#SubHead2

    One of the themes espoused by leaders of the government for more than two decades was that the fate of the former Portuguese colony was irreversible. It was presented to us ad nauseam, with its it's ‘written in concrete’ gusto. Bob Hawke told us to forget about East Timor. Gareth Evans, Canberra's first serial sophist, wanted us to believe that 'the world is a pretty unfair place'. Massacres were called 'aberrations'. Paul Keating convinced us that his Godfather's soldiers were really decent blokes once you got to know them. Malcolm Fraser still believes that it was an East Timorese activist who stole his pants in the United States: he has not once rescinded the communist label he branded onto all the Timorese. And Gough Whitlam continues to work around the clock trying to justify his contentious role in the long tragedy.

    Australian governments all sought to influence the destiny of East Timor. This destiny became one of the longest ongoing acts of genocide since the European Holocaust of the Second World War. I am reminded of the French Vichy Government of that war which supplied and organised the freight train convoys that carried persecuted Jews to the Nazi ovens. Canberra's warts-and-all allegiance with Jakarta; the almost $2 billion in bilateral aid; the million of dollars in military gifts, defence training and defence co-operation; and the political lobbying in the international arena for Jakarta's position, all helped to create a similar cattlewagon, transporting the East Timorese to their diabolical fate.

    http://members.pcug.org.au/~wildwood/earlyviva.htm

    Hundreds of people rallied in capital cities on October 14-15 to protest against Australian government and business complicity in the 19-year Indonesian occupation of East Timor.

    Activists highlighted the fact that Australian-based companies are taking advantage of the Timor Gap Treaty, which contravenes several United Nations resolutions and is likely to be ruled in breach of international law by the International Court or Justice.

    The rallies aimed to show the hypocrisy of the Australian government's "quiet diplomacy" approach to human rights in East Timor while it continues to increase economic and military ties with the Indonesian government and military.

    http://members.pcug.org.au/~wildwood/earlyviva.htm

    The Australian government's support for the 1975 invasion of East Timor; its August, 1983 legal recognition of Indonesia's annexation by force; its policy of continuing joint military exercises and training with the Indonesian occupation forces; its defence of the Suharto dictatorship's atrocious human rights record in numerous international fora; and its complicity in dividing up East Timor's oil with Suharto's oil cronies in the Timor Gap Treaty, make it a willing accomplice in the repression and persecution of the people of East Timor. The moral and political bankruptcy of the federal Labor government is further exposed now when it cannot even bring itself to allow human beings, who try to flee this war, the right to reside in Australia. The government's refusal to consider this most basic humanitarian gesture to the victims of its own foreign policy is evident in its handling of the East Timorese refugees. On October 16, WA Green Senator Christabel Chamarette quizzed immigration minister Nick Bolkus on the government's policy regarding the Portuguese nationality of East Timorese refugees currently seeking to stay in Australia. In his response, Bolkus insisted that, as far as processing the applications of the East Timorese were concerned, "We have not interfered; we will not interfere; and international laws will be applied".

    http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/10425

    After 400 years of colonization and a quarter-century of military occupation, East Timor became independent in 2002. However, the world’s newest nation has yet to establish boundaries with its neighbors, Indonesia and Australia. Tens of billions of dollars worth of oil and gas lie under the Timor Sea between East Timor and Australia (see map on next page), and resolving that maritime boundary is essential to East Timor’s ability to provide for its people. So far, Australia has been unwilling to negotiate respectfully with East Timor according to international legal principles.

    Although it is a sovereign nation, East Timor has limited capability to persuade Australia to negotiate fairly. In fact, Australian officials often try to bully East Timorese negotiators, using their superior size, wealth, experience and options to pressure East Timor to surrender its legal rights. Support from officials and citizens in the United States can make a difference, just as it did in helping to end Indonesia’s 24-year occupation.

    http://www.etan.org/issues/tsea/plainfact.htm

    The sordid history must be viewed against the background of U.S.-Indonesia relations in the postwar era. The rich resources of the archipelago, and its critical strategic location, guaranteed it the central role in U.S. global planning. These factors lie behind U.S. efforts 40 years ago to dismantle Indonesia, perceived as too independent and too democratic, even permitting participation of the leftist peasant-based PKI. The same factors account for Western support for the regime of killers and torturers who brought about a "favorable orientation" in 1965. Their achievements were, furthermore, understood to be a vindication of Washington's wars in Indochina, motivated in large part by concerns that the "virus" of independent nationalism might "infect" Indonesia, to borrow Kissingerian rhetoric. Support for the invasion of East Timor and subsequent atrocities was reflexive, though a broader analysis should attend to the fact that the collapse of the Portuguese empire had much the same consequences in Africa, where South Africa was the agent of Western-backed terror. Throughout, Cold War pretexts were routinely invoked, serving as a convenient disguise for ugly motives and actions, particularly so in Southeast Asia.

    http://members.pcug.org.au/~wildwood/Noam.htm

    Introduction Into The Balibo Secret

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    I thank you for the information.

    Yeeees - assuming that I would believe the uncles and cousins claiming they were handcuffed and then shot?
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    Since you haven't bothered to do the basic work of finding out the facts about the incident with the Australian soldiers in Afghanistan, trying to discuss it is quite pointless. When you've read up on it, get back to me. Try the facts, rather than supposition. Ok?
     
  12. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    6,465
    I would say brainwashing and forcing children to run through Iraqi minefields back in the 80's was pretty bad, especially when Iraq had already offered its surrender at that point and Iran insisted the war wouldn't end until the Ayatollah himself ruled over Baghdad. I know this in itself isn't a crime against a foreign country, but sending children to get their legs blown off so troops can swarm through and a shiite theocracy can be established in Iraq, that's pretty sick stuff right there.
     
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    For SAM's information, here are some facts about the killing of the five children in Afghanistan by Australian troops:

    http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/201...ed-over-civilian-killings-in-afghanistan.html

    There are a couple of important points to note. The first is that 3 soldiers have been charged with various offences. They will be tried by an Australian Court Martial.

    If these soldiers are found to be guilty of crimes then these killings will have been individual actions of the soldiers concerned that were never sanctioned by the Australian military or other authorities. Recognition that crimes have been committed explicitly shows that such actions are illegal and not tolerated under Australian law. Australian authorities will have appropriately prosecuted the law breakers.

    On the other hand, these soldiers may be found not guilty. If that is the case, then it would appear that the relevant facts point to a lack of fault on the part of the soldiers concerned. Presumably, their story would have been accepted by the court and corroborated by other witnesses.

    I wonder whether SAM will accept either verdict as legitimate, or whether she will question in integrity of Australian military courts, or the Australian legal system in general. I'm betting that, whatever happens, she will claim that Australia as a whole is somehow to blame. Because Australians, like Americans, are evil lying oppressors, as we all know.
     
  14. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575

    go for it sam
    its not as if james's precious courts are sacred, inviolate and immune to criticism

    More than 170 military court decisions are in limbo after the High Court declared the new Australian Military Court (AMC), the centrepiece of military justice reforms, to be unconstitutional.

    The decision gave a surprising and far-reaching victory to Brian Lane, a former sailor charged with indecent assault for placing his genitals on a sleeping colleague's forehead - a practice known as "teabagging" - after a drunken night out in 2005.

    He denied the charge and fought it all the way to the High Court.

    Ruling on Mr Lane's case, judges ruled on Wednesday that the AMC, although expressly not a court according to its legislation, was exercising the judicial power of the Commonwealth and that made it invalid under Chapter Three of the Australian Constitution.

    Military Court sentences in limbo (Wed Aug 26 2009)

    Reforms to Australia's military justice system
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2010
  15. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Gustav:

    I'm not sure how you think any of that is relevant.
     
  16. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575
    i shall edit your quote

    /smile
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats not the point

    The point is:

    Five children were killed by Australian troops who violated the sanctity of the home of an Afghan. In his own country. That "suspected insurgent" who died along with presumably all of his children has no name. His children, who were murdered in their own homes, have no names. Not a single Australian report has bothered with the victims of this massacre.

    This is the more likely scenario. The army is a killing machine and when asked to be judge and jury to itself invariably finds itself free of fault. Note once again, that the "suspected insurgent" and his five children have no names. This is how important the Australian mission in Afghanistan is to Australia

    In my opinion, a judicial system where the victims are irrelevant is unlikely to have any credibility
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2010
  18. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You've read every Australian report, have you?

    No, of course you haven't. You're just making stupid assumptions because, as everybody knows, all Australians are evil liars. Right?

    If the people killed here were irrelevant, charges would never have been brought.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    From your RAWA link:

    And no, not a single Australian report has carried the names of the victims. The RAWA report has the name of the "insurgent" whose crime has never been disclosed even though it was sufficient to warrant his death and the death of his children. You can google his name if you like to discover how irrelevant he is as a victim


    And yes, to recap the incident:

     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    So you have never spoken to an Aboriginal but you know of their separatist movement, enough to comment on it so expertly?

    Can you site your sources for these separatist movements?


    Do you disagree with the aide the East Timorese received (since you know, they were begging for help as they were being hacked to death by Indonesians in the streets)?

    Aboriginals are a nation? Or a people?

    Quite the contrary. They have always been recognised as a people. Always and in the past, that recognition was to their detriment. It was never placed in the Constitution however, naming them as the traditional owners of the land and seas. There are plans to change that in the near future, however.

    But seeing how you have issues with blood ties to land (if your ramblings about the Maori is any indication), you should find it quite offensive that they are recognised as the traditional owners of the land and seas of the country.

    Is this your opinion of the "Abos" as you have been known to refer to them?

    And I find it amazing that you should concern yourself with Aboriginals when there are millions upon millions living in abject poverty and disease and being openly discriminated against in your own country.

    You know the saying of never throwing stones when you live in a glass house?

    Australians went to the aid of the East Timorese because they were being slaughtered en masse. After the 2nd day of seeing men, women and children being hacked to pieces on the News, it was clear something had to be done. I am sure if we start hacking Aboriginals the same way the Indonesians were hacking the East Timorese, India will be rushing to their aid, correct?

    Since the likelihood of that happening is nil, I suspect we won't see Indians traveling half way across the world to come to the aid of Aboriginals.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You never know. There may come a time when the Indian Peacekeeping force will travel halfway around the world to liberate the oppressed Aboriginals and help them to get a separate country.
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Are the names of the victims available anywhere?

    Also, I still don't believe you have read every Australian report. Sorry, SAM, but you just haven't. You do realise, too, that not everything is online - don't you?

    As for recapping the incident, remember that I linked you to the details in the first place. What new point do you think you're making, exactly?
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,421
    SAM:

    Would you like to see all foreign troops pull out of Afghanistan immediately?

    Would you be happy to see the Taliban ruling the country again?

    In general, do you think the Taliban makes a good role model? Would you like the Taliban to rule India?
     

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