What is the sound of two Hitchens clapping?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by GeoffP, Apr 13, 2015.

  1. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    It is this sound.



    An interesting debate. It demonstrates the principle of the subset of argument: both speakers being correct, but in different aspects of their points. Comments?

    (By the by: if the thread bothers, by all means crumple Glenn Greenwald's latest column and stuff it into the ears, or the eyes, or whichever orifice it is that offends - and if you cannot locate the correct one, I can probably make a suggestion for a very reasonable fee.)
     
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  3. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Both of them are arguing about the war in Iraq after the fact, where hindsight is always 20/20. Yes, we got rid of a terrible despot, but it was at a terrible cost and furthermore, I do not yet see any reason to believe that the "post Sadaam" Iraq will be very much better in the end than the one we had before, when or if the dust ever settles. Supporting the invasion of Iraq as a response to 9/11 didn't make sense when it was done, and still doesn't. It smacked more of a continuation of the adventure started by Bush's father and was supported strongly by their friends the Saudis because after Kuwait, they figured they were likely next on Sadaam's short list of places to invade or destabilize.

    Peter has a nasty whistle from his teeth or dentures that is very distracting, but I thought he made a few good points about what is good about religion, but I would have added a few to his very short list for an opponent like Chris. Chris might as well be debating as his dear friend Dawkins, and falls into the same bad habits both in this debate and in his book. I liked his examples of the story of Abraham and the book of Job, and I don't think Dawkins ever used the latter to any purpose in a debate. I'd like to see a debate just on that topic.

    A culture's traditions can fill gaps in ideas about morality and provide a sense of community that science cannot. Unfortunately, it can just as easily fill those gaps with ignorance and superstition and intolerance if the tradition is not comprehensive enough or is taught with poor emphasis on things like the barbaric traditions most religions have acted to leave in its unobserved distant past.

    There is in actual fact, no worse evil in society than war, and Chris advocated the war in Iraq more vehemently than did Peter. That speaks volumes about religion's relationship to morality on terms Chris doesn't seem to come to grips with. Chris can't be all bad if he doesn't believe in the dictates of Ayn Rand, quotes Hillel, and was a friend of Stephen Jay Gould. Hillel was not the author of the Golden Rule as Chris claimed, and neither was Jesus. That rule belongs to an older tradition, and is part of a more elaborate moral code tradition borrowed from religion. The rule of law is borrowed from religious tradition.

    It's a great video, though. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Well said. I liked Christopher Hitchens - he wasn't always right, though. And the way he dealt with that older gentleman was reprehensible. Overall, however, the debate was good and Peter Hitchens spoke well also.
     
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  7. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    I expected this debate to be pithier than other philosophical debates, and I was not disappointed. This is the first one I've seen that makes me wish to do one, and that's saying a lot. It wouldn't be nearly as long winded.
     
  8. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Nonsense. There are things worse than war, which is why moral people go to war (religious people do it also).
     
    danshawen likes this.
  9. Photizo Ambassador/Envoy Valued Senior Member

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  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Mm-hmm.
     

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