Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by dumaurier, Jul 2, 1999.
I knew it would, I'm still waiting to have mine delivered.. hehe
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I'd like to say that I'm going to make this message frank. I've got places to be tomarrow and I must make this posting as short as possible.
Dumarrier, I'm not sure what it would prove if I answered the three questions you asked me but what the hey here goes nothing.
1.) First, if you've found something marvellous, wouldn't you wish to share it with others?
It depends. If I could validate my claims and prove (what you call "evidence") what I "found" then ya, I'd share it.
2) Is not sharing a reciprocal action?
Yes. If you do not share, you are EVIL!!!!!
3.) Third, when you give someone a gift, do you change your mind and ask it back?
No, although sometimes I think about it!
Also, now that I've answered those rediculas questions that hardly prove anything -- could someone please explain to me why the discussion shifted from "purpose" to "good vs. evil" ???
Du - I will not rule out the possibility that there may be a God out there -- although it would make just as less sense as it would to say that "we were here by accident.".
But now you guys really have to kick your minds in gear here -- a god is an uncreated bieng. That means he is infinate of time, and that also means that there is no beginning or end.
Who's to say that time isn't God? Maybe God is the time that we exist in? That would have to be it if God was here forever.
If it is true, that there is no beginning, or no ending, then we shouldn't even exist in a universe of time;space!!!! Tell me that is not messed up!!!!!!
I get very confused when I talk about time, and stuff like that. My mind is young, and I have hard times fully grasping concepts such as infinity--as sure I will have a hard time when I'm older too. I was reluctant until now to post my views but now that I've done it I can rest assured that I will be corrected by the majors of this forum.
What is the purpose in life? Why is there a universe? Why is there life at all? For what purpose?
What is the purpose in life?
We aren't garanteed a purpose. I thought I said a while back that purpose was about earning it? Even if that means looking for the purpose, it's still a purpose! What was it that Tom Hanks said to Matt Dillian in Saving Private Ryan? "Earn this!"
Why is there a universe?
I believe that the universe came to be simply because it could! Just like one ultimate law of life! When it can happen, it will happen! My evidence of multiple universes (and perhaps universes within universes) is directed towards ours...I don't think we happened by accident, but was a direct reaction to something that took place somewhere else that is much bigger than just the universe as man sees it today. It was not "just there in the begginging" because -- I just said that time was infinite therefore there was no beginning of it!
ARE YOU AT ANY DEGREE CONFUSED NOW?
Why is there life at all?
There is more to life than just passing thoughts or just passing through it. It's about living what you have receieved. Finding that special purpose. Life is about living it.
Just because we humans have the ability to conceive thought, doesn't mean we
are correct in our assertions.
I love double overdrives' percpective, and I'll quote it once again: "Life is the universes' way of figuring itself out."
Anyways, just some stuff from the minor.
Let's hear the big voices on the subject.
Never give up, eat your greens and follow YOUR bliss!
[This message has been edited by MaTTo (edited July 10, 1999).]
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Loved your post. It is so good to read your opinions. I'm glad you are voicing your thoughts here.
Please permit me to answer some of the items you bring up in your post addressed to me.
You say that you assume that i have personal opinions and beliefs. Of course this is so! It is part of being unique. If all the granaries of the world were filled with grain, not one of these grains would be exactly identical. Every grain is unique. Every person is unique. It goes without saying that our opinions and beliefs are also coloured by this uniqueness.
This being so, yet there are certain facts to which we all adhere. For example, fire burns, willows grow, rivers flow into the sea, rain pours down, fish need water, man needs oxygen, humans need love. Now, all these things are "objective" realities and stand independent of opinions and beliefs. If all men were to perish suddenly, fire would still burn, willows will continue to grow, rivers will still flow into the sea, rain will still pour down, fish will still require water, etc. So, a man could develop a theory with regards the non-existance of Nature, but this nevertheless does not take away from the fact that humans are intricately involved with it! The theorist is interpreting "subjectively," according to his relative perceptions, experiences, awareness, but his theory in no way takes away from the fact that Nature exists!
Now, goodness stems from a moral code which is set against its opposite---evil. We know that if you prick a man he will feel the pain. This is so because the instigator is made of the very same skin and bones as the victim. This instigator would not wish to be inflicted with the same pain he imposes upon his neighbour. Knowing this, it would be "evil" to inflict pain on someone when you know very well that that someone will feel pain. Thus, the word "objective" is always in relation to our awareness of the effect, but the interpretation of that effect will vary from person to person.
As to the man who had his arm eaten by the lion, you will note that in certain countries some animals are considered "evil." The serpent, for example, is considered evil by certain tribes of Africa. In some parts of India the tiger is greatly feared and people invent all sorts of goodluck charms to hang on their doors to ward away the "evil" of its presence. In our own Western culture the black cat is an omen of evil, a broken mirror is a harbinger of bad luck, and so on. Now, superstition is really nonsense invented by the ignorant. This sort of "evil" will evaporate as quickly as morning dew once common sense and intelligent reasoning enters the picture. The point is that knowledge here represents good and evil the absence of good. You will agree that it is better to know than to be ignorant.
Your question with regards Hitler is a very good one. Was he evil or good? For the rest of the world he was evil, but for those who believed in his mission he was good. My answer to this is that in the universe one sees order in everything. Even in chaos there is a certain purpose of order; that is to say that the chaos is part and parcel of the universal order and chaos is limited in its range, having as its ultimate fate its progressive assimilation within the greater order of which it begat its being. Moreover, note that all in existence grows, progresses, evolves and the crowning result is "life" or a new creation. Anything with a regressive tendency dies; life is a forward progression while death is a backward regression. With regards humanity, anything that man does which contributes to its progress, improvement, growth, betterment, is longlasting and even eternal. But anything that man does which contributes to humanity's impoverishment and retrogression, is temporary and doomed to be silenced by the very law of the universe which is based on growth. You may liken this to the developmental stages of a human being. The fetus progressively matures until the baby is formed and then born. Once out of the womb it enters the higher world of Nature where all its powers gradually flower. On the physical plane, development has a limit and when that limit has been reached regression commences. Thus you grew from the stage of the baby to that of a young boy and presently you are in adulthood. Gradually your body will become old and weaken and finally it will return whence it came. Now, this analogy is with regards physical bodies. But it is exactly the same thing with regards the quality of thoughts. So, Hitler's main motive was narrow in scope with regards its aim, imbued with diseased arrogance, maniacal in its disregard of the wellbeing of others. In brief, the very foundation of Hitler's campaign was counter to the principle of the universe: unity and life! It was therefore lacking in universal goodness and we may say that it was evil in its consequentual effects. It goes without saying that his doom was foreordained at the outset. Evil can never conquer good. This is evident and according to the principles animating the universe.
"...Evil isnt defined by how the outcome is. If you end up doing something Evil, but have good intentions about it, also knowing that it might go bad.. Is that Evil? No i would say, as long as you have good intentions. Let's say that someone does something of which the outcome is considered Evil. Suppose the guy didnt know what he did was Evil, he had good intentions about it.. Is he Evil? Can the action be considered Evil?"
I would say this person's action was based on ignorance, which brings us back to square one: ignorance is the absence of knowledge; poverty the absence of wealth; sickness the absence of health; evil the absence of good! Certainly in our ignorance we commit many unintentional wrongs. Evil becomes evil when we deliberately know what is good and right but we do the opposite. For example, a murderer knows full well the outcome of the act he is about to commit but commits it just the same. This is a complete turning against good. This is evil and the murderer is responsible for his act of which society punishes!
I simply love what you say with the words,
"...The base of what you learn today, is the same that your grandfather did... When education becomes so "in a box" there isn't much room to explore the good and the bad things in life.. There is always a balance, but until we all can define good and bad through all cultures, that is never going to happen.."
This is certainly very true. There is no fast and easy answer but i believe there is an answer.
You further ask me,
".. Since good and bad are not perceived the same by any persons, why are different people, with different views judging, the "bad" people?"
I believe it is all a matter of the quality of a person's moral foundation. You see, casting a negative judgement is easier than casting a positive one. When one sees the bad in another, he has only to make the judgement, the reproach, and then wash his hands of the whole affair. He doesn't have to take on personal responsibility in relation to that "bad" he sees in another person. This is very much a child's attitude because children do this all the time without having the awareness of personal responsibility. On the otherhand, to not cast a negative judgement and look at the quality of another requires personal involvement and commitment. For example, one day i was in a shopping mall and an elderly lady was slowly walking in front of me carrying two heavy plastic bags of groceries. She was blocking my path and i was in a hurry! As we approached the exit doors i made a few strides ahead of her and opened the door, allowing her to pass before me. Astonished, she looked at me and said, "I didn't know that good people still existed!" I then proceeded to ask her if i could help carry her bags to the bus stop. She consented. Arriving at the bus stop i forgot all about my appointment and began chatting with her until the bus arrived. Finally, before getting on the bus she said to me, "blessed be your soul." My point is that i could easily have ignored this woman's plight and, instead, simply seen in her a slow person blocking my path. One has to have compassion for others. To blame others for their faults is a characteristic of children, not adults! To see faults in the exterior world is a deformation of perception because we all have faults, but it is our duty to overlook the faults of others for, you see, when we see other people's faults we also expend needless energy in trying to correct them when in reality our duty lies in expending that energy in correcting our own faults!
You also wrote,
"So until we can "define" good and evil, write it down on a piece of paper to be the foundation for all cultures on this planet, this conversation will always be biased.. "
Yes, this seems a good idea. It has already been done, however. We have only to open our minds to the Teachings of Moses, Christ, Buddha, and Mohammad. We have only to understand their spiritual Teachings. The social Teachings of these Divine Manifestations differed due to the requirements of the time in which they lived, but their spiritual Teachings are all the same: They all taught love, respect, compassion, justice, wisdom, for example. These Teachings are the Standard for the behavior of all humans on this planet.
In conclusion, you write:
"You in the USA are afraid and concerned of the Islamic terrorists that might attack US right? Are those people Evil? No.. They are not. They are willing to do this for THEIR good cause, so for them the US are the terrorists. US looks upon them as terrorists themselves, based on THEIR perspective of what is good...."
Once again, what i explained above with regards Hitler will have to be applied here, too. Any movement which today fixes as its aim the destruction of humanity's ordered life and wellbeing will utterly fail. This is impossible for it is against the principle of the universe! You will recall what happened to Sadam Husain when many countries converged to stop the furtherance of his political intentions. We are getting to that point of planetary development where no nation will dare wage war against another. The United Nations affords us a glimmer of the beginning of a great political union between nations. It is still in its infant stage. It needs a few more years before it fully matures. The goal of human societies throughout the globe is to unite into one fatherland, one great nation called EARTH!
THE UNITY OF HUMANITY IS NOT ONLY POSSIBLE, IT IS INEVITABLE!
H-Kon, your English is superb!!!
I have enjoyed talking to you
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Your reply to my post was a very very good one. There is really nothing that i can point my finger on. We are agreed on this, thus making this conversation a little difficult.
One thing i need to do is make sure my posts arent so repetetive as the one i made Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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Instead of answering I would like to know a few specifics. First do you want the simple answer (for the answer is experience) or are you looking for a more expansive reason? Second do you mean only in your life, everyone's lives, this life time, or the whole deal?
you can belive what you wish, but if you expect it, it may not come true
I have trouble understanding your post. Would you please be more clear. Thank you.
You're so kind, thank you.
I was wondering, need we necessarily point fingers at anything at all in order to have a conversation? Don't you think it sad that people should bicker and fight just because they have different views? It would be so marvellous if we could just learn to accept each other as we are, without trying to impose, without trying to cut the grass under the feet of someone who has different ideas. We are all searching and if we searched together, with genuine interest, we'd be the happier for it because united we would achieve results unattainable if we searched alone!
Perhaps you could elaborate your purpose of life, and maybe even tell us your opinion on why there is a universe at all? I think that if the conversation can be friendly, inviting, non-antagonistic, we could explore each other's views and most probably learn a lot. It is in this reciproval type of sharing, really, that people grow and learn to love each other, don't you think?
I was asking three specifics based on your original..but let me say them again 1. Do you want me to tell you what is the meaning of your life, my life, or everybody's lives? 2. did you mean in this life, the next life, or the entire time we exist.3. are you looking for a big or small answer...there that should clear it up..sorry for not being clearer
Thanks for the clarification. I have elaborated between each point you bring up...
1. Do you want me to tell you what is the meaning of your life, my life, or everybody's lives?
Well, since the part is of the whole, and the whole is comprised of each part, i suppose you can start by
a) What is the meaning of your life?
b) What is (or should be) the meaning of life for everybody on this planet as a whole.
c) As for the meaning of my own life, i should be able to figure that one out by myself.
Now for point 2 of your post...
2. did you mean in this life, the next life, or the entire time we exist.
a) I mean first in this life because this is the most relative, of course;
b) And specifically while we do have life on this earth, which means the entire time we exist on this earth
c) As to the next life, i guess we should leave this for the time when we get there (do you think there are bulletinboards there? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Now for point 3...
3. are you looking for a big or small answer...
a) A "deep" or profound answer coming from the very depths of your heart would be the best *;
b) Make it as big as you want.
*Note that it is easy to intellectualize anything. We can create all sorts of imaginative schemes with our minds and justify just about anything with logic and reason. It'd be good if you were really honest and pondered very deeply your answers before posting.
Maybe there is no purpose to life. Maybe you just exist and that's it. Why does there have to be a "reason"?
Maybe the purpose of life is carry on the species in order to prevent it from becoming extinct
Or, if you don't like either of those. Make your own purpose.
What other beings in the universe (that you know of) contemplate "purpose." This is a question about, "who am I, and what am I supposed to do."
It is existential question about the rules of the game. You say Damurier that you "don't believe in accidents." So that is a good start for you. Me I assume that accidents happen, but then I never ask myself that question, maybe because I have travelled alot, and realized that the rules are different in the next village.
this message will be short.
Generally, we adapt, learn and evolve.
That is what the meaning of life is
in one perspective, but in another,
life is what you make of it.
What does life mean to you?
Well guys, i was kinda looking for more substance to your posts...
I stated the meaning of life.
Truly no one can think of a better
"The meaning of life is what life
means to you.
As a species, we learn, reproduce
There. I've said it again.
I believe the problem is fundamentally one of perception: those who view life as a material existence only, will interpret everything from such a perspective; those who view life as having a spiritual significance, will see it from a spiritual perspective.
My view is that true "purpose" is of a spiritual nature. Material existence is subservient to this.
I see life from a spiritual perspective. All matter was created to serve a spiritual purpose. In other words, the universe has a spiritual purpose. Where there is no spiritual purpose, there is limited, constrained purpose, for matter, as we all know, is finite, limited. But the spiritual is infinite.
Thus, an expert engineer creates a fine piece of architectural art and its purpose is not the combining of the various pieces but that the final structure should serve a superior purpose.
This is a brief rendition of my view on the purpose of life.
My view is this: The universe is alive, the supreme organism! We are intelligent pieces of the universe, for the purpose of thought and love.
-Intelligent piece of the universe, Joe
There lived a wise man if, we can call him a man - named Jesus. A wonder worker and a teacher of those who search after truth, he attracted crowds of both Jews and 'Gentiles. He was the 'Christ. Nevertheless, Pilate, at the urging of our leaders, sentenced him to death on the 'cross. His disciples remained faithful, however, and after three days he appeared to them alive. This and many other marvelous things had been foretold about him by the prophets. The Christian sect, named after him, still flourishes to this day."
Flavius Josephus (1st Century AD.)
No man in history ever claimed what Jesus did.
Mohammed acknowledged himself to be a sinner.
Buddah rejected any form of personal veneration.
No man in history ever dared to identify Himself with God in the way that Jesus did.
and Jesus said, "Who do you say I am?"
You posted this same, exact message elsewhere and i am posting here the same, exact answer:
I'm of the impression that the points you raise may be better discussed in an independent thread. Here we are talking about "Proofs & Evidences of the Existence of God." Your post seems to be better suited to a thread on comparative religion. Why don't you start the thread? Just be warned that once one gets on the bandwagon of comparative adjectives, the road is quite rough and full of peril.
So, do you have any proof and/or evidence supporting or debunking our current topic?
The purpose of life:
To glorify God!
Separate names with a comma.